An update from Firaxis Games regarding Beyond Earth feedback

No Alaska for example went for pure academies and proved that's better than biowells if that's your point. However Bionics is just next to Autoplant which is hard to argue against and bionics still give you a free tech with the institute.
Also almost every optimal path is being obscured by the current TR imbalance and other shenanigans.
That's why this has to be fixed for other people to bother explore other venues. And that's why things cannot be fixed in one huge patch but by slowly making increments and decrements as people explore the game.
 
The entire problem with CivFanatics and fan bandwagonning at this point is that a popular strat is elucidated on the forums and then experimentation simply stops. I don't know if you remember, but there was a time when obsolete's Wonder Economy in the CivIV forums was openly derided as "stupid" and "impossible" and "clearly suboptimal newbie crap." After all, everyone "knew" that Wonders were for chumps.

Right now, that's Bionics. No one wants to experiment and try to find other ways through the tech tree. Everyone just does the same damn thing over and over and there's nothing to balance with anything else. It's all just the one thing.

We don't even know whether there is any other strong path because no one even tries. Heck, even if there were another weak path, the fact that no one even tries means that we don't know how that path looks like or how it may or may not work. It's maddening. And then peeps complain about it and stop playing.

I wish I could say that this was unusual, but it was like this in the CivIV days as well. We can only hope that CivBE will turn out better.

How do you think we arrive at the strong path in the first place? By trying a bunch of suboptimal paths and going "gee, that strong one I tried shaves fifty turns off my victory time no matter what else I do, it must be the best one".
 
Esperr:

I think people come here, compare notes, and then just do the thing they read about to the exclusion of pretty much everything else. Generously, they try a few games, glom onto "the best thing" and then also never try anything else.

The forums are full of "optimal this" and "optimal that" and "its pointless to use anything else." Look around.
 
How do you think we arrive at the strong path in the first place? By trying a bunch of suboptimal paths and going "gee, that strong one I tried shaves fifty turns off my victory time no matter what else I do, it must be the best one".

Actually, as far as I can tell, the preferred method is finding the first strong path that works and then failing to see if anything works better.

As another example, several years ago, every top player of Civ 4 would tell you that Engineering was crap. Whenever you asked one of them some questions to determine whether they had actually tried early Engineering, they would never answer.

They could never answer.

It wasn't until a few years ago that someone started seriously experimenting with what Engineering could do, and the Engineering bulb was born.

The same attitude of "whatever works first" was also displayed in the sheer number of people would who only play until they bulb Liberalism, even when someone demonstrated that an earlier Liberalism bulb leads to a later actual victory time.

There's also some self-reinforcing nature in the whole thing; the person who learns how powerful an axe rush is when conditions are right starts setting up the map so conditions will more often be right (witness the first ALC Saladin game, where things got flubbed when early war was not easily feasible).

That this can apply in BE is rather obvious, since I recently had an argument where the entire point of contention ended up being that I tend to play on maps where I don't have two safe available surplus trade routes in the early game, while other people apparently always have them.

To sum up: no. Just based on the forum experience of the past several years, most people don't actually continue experimenting after they find the first way that works. Instead, they raise the difficulty level and set about finding better ways to make what worked work.
 
No Alaska for example went for pure academies and proved that's better than biowells if that's your point. However Bionics is just next to Autoplant which is hard to argue against and bionics still give you a free tech with the institute.
Also almost every optimal path is being obscured by the current TR imbalance and other shenanigans.
That's why this has to be fixed for other people to bother explore other venues. And that's why things cannot be fixed in one huge patch but by slowly making increments and decrements as people explore the game.

Experience with Civ IV and Civ V where Trade Routes played a minor role suggests that the tech jump is almost always the determining factor. Bionics is already a fairly strong tech. The Free Technology from Institute essentially makes it a Great Library that you can always build and acquire risk-free. That's a far more important and distorting influence than the TRs.

Bandobras Took:

Case in point: in my latest game as ARC, I was stuck inland on a snaking middle-sized continent by myself and with one Station. That was it. Strategic Resources of any kind on the continent were sparse, except for an abundance of Floatstone way down on the Southern Tip (start was North, in Tundra).

Just to make things fun, the middle part of the continent was forested and infested with two Nests - too little to make Might worthwhile, but too much to make breaking through easy.

I had to go through the rather laborious task of making my second city the default trade hub on the coast, while the capital was relegated to the role of a minor Generator City. It made for a significant delay. Not having externals of any sort, and having limited, sucky land for your main is kind of an economic challenge. On the plus side, being isolated means never having to say sorry for settling too near anyone.

The annoying thing was, it wasn't like the second city spot was glorious. The best I could snag was a single Titanium tile (3) plus a Chitin tile and a bunch of Plains.

TRs are really, really awesome, but when you can't use them...
 
Right now, that's Bionics. No one wants to experiment and try to find other ways through the tech tree. Everyone just does the same damn thing over and over and there's nothing to balance with anything else. It's all just the one thing.

I don't think that's true. There are several other lines to take that people have shown to be effective, it's just they tend to be narrowly effective towards a specific goal/specific situation. They also tend to benefit from throwing in Bionics rather early. Only Espionage sleeze Domination and Affinity 2 cheese rushes are going to not see a benefit from Bionics. Otherwise, the question is only of timing, with the answer almost always being "very early".

Bionics works well for almost anything because the Institute gives you more Science than it cost to get to it. When faced with the choice of getting X or X + Bionics ... and the X + Bionics option costs less ... it's a simple math problem.
 
I don't think that's true. There are several other lines to take that people have shown to be effective, it's just they tend to be narrowly effective towards a specific goal/specific situation. They also tend to benefit from throwing in Bionics rather early. Only Espionage sleeze Domination and Affinity 2 cheese rushes are going to not see a benefit from Bionics. Otherwise, the question is only of timing, with the answer almost always being "very early".

Bionics works well for almost anything because the Institute gives you more Science than it cost to get to it. When faced with the choice of getting X or X + Bionics ... and the X + Bionics option costs less ... it's a simple math problem.

I haven't really seen many people do alternative paths and make comparative comments. Feel free to point out alternatives that aren't being warped by Bionics.

Like you said, it's simply too beneficial right now. I don't consider that a math problem at all! The math involved is so completely superficial I don't even know why anyone would mention it. It's simply the free tech being OP for cost and position.
 
I haven't really seen many people do alternative paths and make comparative comments. Feel free to point out alternatives that aren't being warped by Bionics.

hm, im use Bionics only when i need free Nanorobotics. Im just buy ~3200 tech just for ~770 + gold for buying institue. And i learn Bionics in about ~t95 for a 20-turn handicap for earning bonus. For sure, my plan is dead if bonus doesnt appear, but i always can reload.

On the other way in MP games i NEVER go for bionics coz it's too risky to miss bonus and this tech dont give us any other benefits. Biowells? Well-balanced, but average improvement.
 
You don't have to compare it because the math is so simple.

You're taking "compare" as an analytical verb using "math." Stop thinking math. The math in Civ is so elementary it insults us both to even be referring to "math." Stop saying math. It's embarassing.

When I say "compare," I mean to actually try out alternative paths and possible synergies, figure out what's going on, and then compare where each path is strong and where each is weak and then make a reasoned and in-depth discussion about what's going on.

Right now? Nothing. All anyone can say is that Bionics works great. Yep it does. Don't need "math" to see that. It's obvious. And boring. And people stop playing or exploring alternative ways of playing because of it. It's annoying. The forums would be a lot more interesting if people instead said, "The bottom path through the tree could use buffing in so and so a manner to make it competitive with Bionics-path." But no one says that because no one's playing the game any other way, even for a change of pace.

How many players are even choosing anything other than Artist Colonists? Sometimes I think I'm the only one who plays with anything else.

And yes, Aeson. I know you're also trying out the other Colonists. I think Took is, too. But too many players and posters don't.
 
When I say "compare," I mean to actually try out alternative paths and possible synergies, figure out what's going on, and then compare where each path is strong and where each is weak and then make a reasoned and in-depth discussion about what's going on.

Why players must discuss core things?

We can discuss supportive things like:
- going for memetic and 15% science satellite?
- going for tech with hub and command center coz it's give u 2 agents for free?

No need to discuss bionics as tech for 770, which give us free tech with cost 770+. It's a CORE tech right now. It's like discussing poineering.

U must concentrate on supportive things and just stop theorycrafting about core things.
 
Why players must discuss core things?

We can discuss supportive things like:
- going for memetic and 15% science satellite?
- going for tech with hub and command center coz it's give u 2 agents for free?

No need to discuss bionics as tech for 770, which give us free tech with cost 770+. It's a CORE tech right now. It's like discussing poineering.

U must concentrate on supportive things and just stop theorycrafting about core things.

I do not consider Bionics a core tech like Pioneering. Its position on the tech web is considerably off-center, and making it core makes Purity considerably stronger as an Affinity choice on account of Bionics being its Node for Servomachinery. And the free tech unlocks it.

I have played games with and without Bionics. It is a dominating tech for its level; far too powerful and because of it, Purity and Harmony are favored. The only "benefit" Supremacy might get for it, is unlocking a mediocre Affinity 7 building on the higher Node as a dead-end project. I mean, aside from the broken tech itself.

Supremacy already has issues with food. Its key food tech is Weather Satellites, which requires hard-to-get Petroleum, each tile of which lowers your Health, which exacerbates their already serious low-health issue.

When we say "balance" and "rebalance," this implies weighing something against something else. "Nerfing" something without reference to a balance standard is blind and ultimately pointless. It may not even be necessary to change Bionics at all, if the tech it can be competitive with are buffed to be similarly beneficial.

There is also the issue unique to Tech Webs that there's often incentive to spread tech around. People play the same way every time because there's no balance between picking up off-tech things like Autoplants for every single game and simply concentrating on Affinity-specific techs. At the same time, the design of Affinity-picking is whacked in that it's too easy to get Affinity up without sacrificing nearly anything.

The short version is, we can't balance a path through the game against itself. It must be balanced against another, and right now, there is no other.
 
You're taking "compare" as an analytical verb using "math." Stop thinking math. The math in Civ is so elementary it insults us both to even be referring to "math." Stop saying math. It's embarassing.

Sorry, but the equation X + Bionics > X is a mathematical statement. Math can be simple.

When I say "compare," I mean to actually try out alternative paths and possible synergies, figure out what's going on, and then compare where each path is strong and where each is weak and then make a reasoned and in-depth discussion about what's going on.

Right now? Nothing. All anyone can say is that Bionics works great. Yep it does. Don't need "math" to see that. It's obvious. And boring. And people stop playing or exploring alternative ways of playing because of it. It's annoying. The forums would be a lot more interesting if people instead said, "The bottom path through the tree could use buffing in so and so a manner to make it competitive with Bionics-path." But no one says that because no one's playing the game any other way, even for a change of pace.

Most people who are going to talk about game mechanics in any real depth are min/max players. I play many different ways, but always within those constraints (self-imposed or via settings) I will min/max. That's the fun of Civ to me, doing X as well as I can.

People have said things about how to bring Bionics back in line. As I've stated, I prefer removing the free Tech on the Institute quest as well as a reduction to Trade Route yields, removing the free Trade Route from Autoplant quest, a reduction in Affinity 4 unit STR and increase in resource cost.

Health needs to have a bigger kick to it, more gradient, and that will require Biowells to be nerfed. (Because while Biowells aren't terrible now, they will be if Health matters.)

I think that will go a long way towards making alternate routes through the Tech Web more viable in a min/max environment.

If it is going to be fixed, it's important for Firaxis to know what the problems are. And in this case the problem is for almost any given tech queue, adding Bionics in makes that tech queue finish faster. So it becomes something that's in every tech queue. The more that gets said, the more likely the Tech Web can be fixed to have alternate early routes that are competitive.

How many players are even choosing anything other than Artist Colonists? Sometimes I think I'm the only one who plays with anything else.

And yes, Aeson. I know you're also trying out the other Colonists. I think Took is, too. But too many players and posters don't.

Well the benefit is that with most players claiming Artists are the best it will likely end with Artists getting nerfed (they probably should at least lose the Health) and other Colonist options will get more love.

Don't get too frustrated with it :)
 
I'm actually not that sure that Artists ought to be nerfed. They're essentially CiV France. They're good to start with, but all of that is only when you're doing Prosperity. Outside of the free Colonist, the free +2 Culture rapidly loses significance, especially playing Supremacy with their Feedsite Hubs.

I'd rather that the other options be buffed to do more of what they're supposed to do; which we don't have enough data on because not enough people are playing them. I'm partial to also giving +1 Health to Refugees, but I'm not even sure about that because the pop gain and tile working ability of the Colonist is fairly strong.

Sorry, but the equation X + Bionics > X is a mathematical statement. Math can be simple.

I was saying that ALL the "math" in CiV is so simple that we shouldn't even be calling it math. Just like we don't refer to talking to each other as "Grammar" or "English." Be cool. A lot of times (and even here), "math" is used as an intimidation word because apparently a lot of people think saying "math" means something. We both know it doesn't.

People have said things about how to bring Bionics back in line. As I've stated, I prefer removing the free Tech on the Institute quest as well as a reduction to Trade Route yields, removing the free Trade Route from Autoplant quest, a reduction in Affinity 4 unit STR and increase in resource cost.

It's interesting that both Robotics and Bionics are competitive enough that they're both auto-picks. I think a more holistic approach isn't to nerf them both to kingdom come, but to see what other alternatives do and see if those can't be buffed to be similarly competitive.

Health needs to have a bigger kick to it, more gradient, and that will require Biowells to be nerfed. (Because while Biowells aren't terrible now, they will be if Health matters.)

I've always played as if Health mattered. Biowells were okay, but not super. Experience from the self-imposed limitation informs me that Biowells are a very costly (energy-wise and worker-time) solution for Health. Even without the Health benefit, the main reason people use Biowells is for food, and the options for that are limited whether or not you nerf the Health benefit. It's not like Purity needs the Health anyway.

The alternatives are to go for Purity Farms or to just simply not have food improvements. Purity Farms are already competitive with Biowells as-is. The thing that need buffing is playing without any food improvements whatsoever, or else change Weather Satellites to be a more accessible and powerful option for those forgoing Bionics.

And the only reason I know that is because I've tried using Weather Satellites instead of Farms or Biowells.
 
Robotics and Bionics do need a big nerf though. Robotics just isn't about getting Autoplants. It leads to CNDRs which even with a nerf will still be important Supremacy units. Bionics isn't just about the free tech. Biowells are powerful, and fixing Health will only make them more powerful. And Bionics is the path to Battlesuits, which again will still be important even if nerfed.

Biowells make maintaining Utopian Health trivial even while expanding like mad. If Health becomes more of a limiting factor, it will have to address the end-around of Biowells. It may not affect your specific playstyle, but it does affect the game still.
 
While bionics doesn't need to be nerfed to kingdom come, institute does need the free tech quest option removed. If everything else on the same ring was buffed to match that the game would get pretty crazy.
 
Biowells are powerful, and fixing Health will only make them more powerful.

Biowells make maintaining Utopian Health trivial even while expanding like mad. If Health becomes more of a limiting factor, it will have to address the end-around of Biowells. It may not affect your specific playstyle, but it does affect the game still.

I try biowells and find, that biowells doesnt work.

Maybe ur research can prove, that biowells really works? Can u share some ingame screenshots, where u reach utopia with biowells with competitive science\culture\production output?
 
Robotics and Bionics do need a big nerf though. Robotics just isn't about getting Autoplants. It leads to CNDRs which even with a nerf will still be important Supremacy units. Bionics isn't just about the free tech. Biowells are powerful, and fixing Health will only make them more powerful. And Bionics is the path to Battlesuits, which again will still be important even if nerfed.

Biowells make maintaining Utopian Health trivial even while expanding like mad. If Health becomes more of a limiting factor, it will have to address the end-around of Biowells. It may not affect your specific playstyle, but it does affect the game still.

The interesting part to me is that Biowells simply transform Civ 5's Happiness limiter mechanic to Civ IV's money limiter mechanic. After all, each Biowell requires maintenance. And they require a heckuvalot of Worker time to boot, so spamming them for Utopian Health in the face of massive expansion has prohibitive costs.

These costs right now are offset on Apollo by gold exploits and the jacked up return of TRs on that setting. Those are nonstandard. On more normative settings, the external returns are nowhere near that high, and the AI doesn't have as much money. "Apollo" touts itself as the "hardest" setting, but it's probably more correct to say that it's the one that's most distorted and allows the worst exploits.

Closing those off definitively is the first step to seeing a true valuation of external routes and Biowell maintenance.

Without the massive gold influx, maintaining Utopian (20+) Health in the face of massive expansion is not trivial at all.

AlaskA's experience is closer to mine. I won't say that Biowells "don't work," but they aren't so powerful that Vertical Farms and Health buildings don't offer a competitive setup in the face of normative energy income levels.

The competing techs for Bionics and Robotics are:

Fabrication
Computing
Terraforming
Alien Sciences
Genetic Design
Cognition
Organics
Biology

Of all those, I think maybe Cognition and Genetic Design might be competitive if the Institute and Autoplant were tuned down a bit.
 
If it is going to be fixed, it's important for Firaxis to know what the problems are. And in this case the problem is for almost any given tech queue, adding Bionics in makes that tech queue finish faster. So it becomes something that's in every tech queue. The more that gets said, the more likely the Tech Web can be fixed to have alternate early routes that are competitive.

The attitude that things have to be repeated ad nauseam is what makes a lot of forums unbearable. I've heard that some things need to be fixed dozens of times over and I understand it pretty quickly. Why would Firaxis need more than me? Because they're idiots? Well if that was true I would have abandoned this game already because if idiots were in charge there isn't much chance of them fixing anything whether we hound them or not.
 
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