An update from Firaxis Games regarding Beyond Earth feedback

[Aeson]

I try biowells and find, that biowells doesnt work.

Maybe ur research can prove, that biowells really works? Can u share some ingame screenshots, where u reach utopia with biowells with competitive science\culture\production output?

Competitive is a rather vague term. Towards which end?

 

[Aeson]

The attitude that things have to be repeated ad nauseam is what makes a lot of forums unbearable. I've heard that some things need to be fixed dozens of times over and I understand it pretty quickly. Why would Firaxis need more than me? Because they're idiots? Well if that was true I would have abandoned this game already because if idiots were in charge there isn't much chance of them fixing anything whether we hound them or not.

The squeeky wheel gets the grease.

Any time the subject comes up, it should be addressed properly.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I think the best and easiest way to fix Robotics and Bionics is by changing the quest for the institute and the autoplant. Get rid of the free tech and the +1 trade route and these buildings are no longer automatic must-haves and as a result the techs become more balanced.

 

[AlaskA]

Competitive is a rather vague term. Towards which end?

In my post i tell u about science\culture\production output values. There a lot of screens on the forum and if u really research and not just theorycraft, u for sure know the competitive numbers, but anyway - can u give me ur best values with biowells on standart\standart\appolo on turn 100,120,150 for expample or near it?

At the first games i miss that science is crucial and when i read thread about science i change my mind and improve my results. Maybe ur screens change my mind again?

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Finding the optimal mathematically best path only matters for the high end and low end play. High end they're looking for every advantage to win the highest level the fastest and low end is the same but because it's the only way they'd ever win. I heard a lot in civ 4 that you should never found a religion because it delays other things. But founding a religion is fun so I did it anyway and so never did highest difficulty levels. I also played civ 5 using autocracy and went for diplomatic and cultural victories with it because it was interesting to play that way. So I'm more in the middle. However I do always get robotics and bionics because a free tech and extra trade is too good not to get. I'll play a knife fight like a fist fight to make things interesting but trying to make a gun fight a fist fight is a bit much for me.
I played a supremacy game and didn't get bionic till late, but by the time it was only 3 turns to research it would be stupid not too. Three turns and I can get a 12 turn tech for free. I also got the harmony tech for workers immune to miasma because it was one turn!
In the affinities xml there is a non dominant affinity technologies modifier that starts at 2 at level 9 and can go as high as 16. I don't think it works though because I haven't noticed any thing. I may bod it to start sooner and see what happens. If off affinity tech did go up in cost it might keep people's dirty supremacy hands off of vertical farming.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

The squeeky wheel gets the grease.

Any time the subject comes up, it should be addressed properly.

Yeah, well I have to listen to the squeaky wheel, and then I have to listen to people talk about the squeaky wheel while it's squeaking.
Maybe it's just me, but when I'm in a long slow line at the supermarket the worst part is when people start talking about how long and slow the line is. It makes it 10 times worse for me.

 

[Aeson]

In my post i tell u about science\culture\production output values. There a lot of screens on the forum and if u really research and not just theorycraft, u for sure know the competitive numbers, but anyway - can u give me ur best values with biowells on standart\standart\appolo on turn 100,120,150 for expample or near it?

At the first games i miss that science is crucial and when i read thread about science i change my mind and improve my results. Maybe ur screens change my mind again?

What I'm saying is there are different ends in-game. You wouldn't do the same thing in regards to a fastest Domination as you would towards a fastest Contact or a highest Score. The context matters. What is the goal to achieve? Not all of them will benefit from Biowells, some will more than others.

 

[Aeson]

Yeah, well I have to listen to the squeaky wheel, and then I have to listen to people talk about the squeaky wheel while it's squeaking.
Maybe it's just me, but when I'm in a long slow line at the supermarket the worst part is when people start talking about how long and slow the line is. It makes it 10 times worse for me.

You don't have to read it if you don't want to.

In that analogy, you are the one talking about how long the line is.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

You don't have to read it if you don't want to.

In that analogy, you are the one talking about how long the line is.

Well by that logic, you don't need to keep posting the same thing because the developers have stopped reading it having already read it and are ignoring it.
I don't know where in my story I said I was talking about the line, or talking about other people talking about the line because I don't. I'd love to ask them why they keep talking about the line that we are already standing in when there is no special insight into the line that they are providing but I don't know who's going to stab me in the parking lot.
Don't worry though my ignore list is 200 names long.

 

[Aeson]

Well by that logic, you don't need to keep posting the same thing because the developers have stopped reading it having already read it and are ignoring it.

Maybe. We have no way of knowing for sure since the devs don't give any feedback about it. I've been on playtesting before (check credits for Civ IV), so I do understand something about how the process works.

In any case, whether Firaxis listens or not is only part of the fun. I like a good discussion about game mechanics. If you don't, just don't participate.

 

[Bandobras Took]

These costs right now are offset on Apollo by gold exploits and the jacked up return of TRs on that setting. Those are nonstandard. On more normative settings, the external returns are nowhere near that high, and the AI doesn't have as much money. "Apollo" touts itself as the "hardest" setting, but it's probably more correct to say that it's the one that's most distorted and allows the worst exploits.

Wow, I think you're only the second person I've seen who's ever understood that concept.

 

[Lord Tirian]

In any case, whether Firaxis listens or not is only part of the fun. I like a good discussion about game mechanics. If you don't, just don't participate.

I'd also argue that the volume helps to peg the gravity of the issue. One complaint? It might be a playstyle preference. Hundreds of posts? It's probably an issue across the board.

Ultimately, feedback is subjective. By aggregating feedback, you get a better idea of the overall issue.

 

[AlaskA]

What I'm saying is there are different ends in-game. You wouldn't do the same thing in regards to a fastest Domination as you would towards a fastest Contact or a highest Score. The context matters. What is the goal to achieve? Not all of them will benefit from Biowells, some will more than others.

Oh, i just wanna see best science\culture\produce output with biowells from players, who tell, that they very powerfull. No matters any other context. Im research ur numbers and maybe change my mind about them.

 

[Wodan]

The entire problem with CivFanatics and fan bandwagonning at this point is that a popular strat is elucidated on the forums and then experimentation simply stops.

That's a fair point, Roxlimn, and absolutely true in my experience. Most people on here are all about min/maxing their game. But that's also why the game balance at the moment doesn't bother me. I love experimentation, and in playing the game in new ways. To me, if something is perceived as weak, that's a challenge, to see how I can use and abuse that so-called "weak" strategy. And vice-versa to "overpowered" strategies.

Yes, I get fun and enjoyment from the game in maxing out a strat, but the more I perfect it the less enjoyable it is. Variety being the spice of life, and all that.

So, to me, arguments that are distilled down to OP->boring game is a self-fulfilling catch-22.

All that is not to say BE is perfect... it's just that it hasn't been out long enough for me to explore all the different strategies yet. That's the difference between the two approaches (finds OP strat / throws hands up / complain online VS finds OP strat / moves on to experiment with other strats).

 

[Acken]

These costs right now are offset on Apollo by gold exploits and the jacked up return of TRs on that setting. Those are nonstandard. On more normative settings, the external returns are nowhere near that high, and the AI doesn't have as much money. "Apollo" touts itself as the "hardest" setting, but it's probably more correct to say that it's the one that's most distorted and allows the worst exploits.

It still shows a problem in the design then

 

[Roxlimn]

It still shows a problem in the design then

Indeed. This flaw was also exploited by players in CiV. For all I know, they're still doing it. Maybe it's considered a fun thing, I don't know. Certainly, all the comments of "External TRs are too powerful!" sound like they're from Apollo players. Since the Strength of the external depends on both AI and player cities, on anything lower than Soyuz, the Externals are actually competitive with optimized Internals, and on Mercury, they're hardly worth plying.

That income definitely could use some form of standardization or at least setting-dependent reductions on the higher settings.

However, that's more of a balance tweak than a fundamental design issue.

 

[Acken]

If you mean trade routes then no, Civ5 and CivBE are far from each other. It's true that Deity external trade routes are better but players also have a tendency to use internal routes on this level. If anything, externals could use a boost in that game.

If you're referring to trading then yes Deity makes things easier because the AI is more likely to hook its resources and get more gold. But to be honest this is an AI issue, the AI sucks at improving its resources so only by starting with 2 workers are they starting to be competent.

Either way, I'll maintain that external routes are too strong in CivBE (well if you keep having 3 at least). I'll admit and make no apology that I don't really care for what happens in lower difficulties. If it's important to Firaxis, then I suggest they find a design with routes that don't vary from one difficulty to the next in order to not have that kind of issue.

 

[Bandobras Took]

I'll admit and make no apology that I don't really care for what happens in lower difficulties.

I've always loved the "My way is the one true way of playing" attitude, because the forms it takes are always so unrecognized by its own adherents.

 

[Gort]

I found internal trade routes plenty powerful last time I played Apollo, I didn't use externals except when I didn't have another option early in the game, or if I needed the energy for maintenance. I'll have to see how a mainly-external economy ends up.

 

[Acken]

I've always loved the "My way is the one true way of playing" attitude, because the forms it takes are always so unrecognized by its own adherents.

I just want to make it clear and honest where my perspective comes from when arguing about problems I have with the game. I don't think it's the only true way of playing but I'll argue for the game to be interesting on these settings (since this is those I play). Not playing the easier settings I don't know so can't argue for those. If a change I'm asking for creates a problem for other people then I encourage Firaxis to look into it and find a design where this is not the case.