AND SVN Build Thread

Revision 772

  • Improve health text from improvements (broken into line item for each improvement type, rather lumped into 1 item)
  • Re-balance port -> seaport -> international port connectedness yield a little bit
  • Publishing House gives +7 science beakers, +4 culture (previously was +20% science, +10% culture)

Yes, I do fit in time to play RAND (who needs sleep?). That is how I noticed the health text for improvements were horrible. Also totally missed the publishing house in the last revision.
 
You might want to research base BtS and compare its technology quantity per era. Obviously ignore Transhumance because base BtS doesn't have it. See if the proportion is roughly similar or lopsided?

I never thought of comparing this mod with the vanillia, my mindset during the post was comparing this mod towards caveman2cosmos because they has tons of a techs where finding the quick way to advancing though the ages does not really exist because there was ****tons of techs to research...

Half of me wish to see that happen in the future with this mod but half of me is more concern about performance as caveman2cosmos has bad performance from my experiences, as I don't want to see this mod has the same performance speed as Caveman2cosmos...
 
I never thought of comparing this mod with the vanillia, my mindset during the post was comparing this mod towards caveman2cosmos because they has tons of a techs where finding the quick way to advancing though the ages does not really exist because there was ****tons of techs to research...

Half of me wish to see that happen in the future with this mod but half of me is more concern about performance as caveman2cosmos has bad performance from my experiences, as I don't want to see this mod has the same performance speed as Caveman2cosmos...

It is highly unlikely that more techs will be added.
 
rev772, from more testing Medieval and Renaissance are still far too quick. I've hit industrial on turn 245/600, while it should be hit on turn 340/600 more or less. Ancient and Classical were ok, more or less. Further testing seems to indicate that Industrial is ok, more or less 85 turns on blitz, I haven't tested Modern or Transhuman at the moment.

Edit: savegame attached, 10 turns after hitting industrial
 

Attachments

I'm not a huge fan of playing on Blitz speed (Normal's pretty much as "fast" as I generally go, and I don't usually play on anything slower than Epic/Marathon) since units tend to obsolete the moment you've finished making an army of them. I can't count the number of times on Blitz I'd march a big stack of units over to my rival - who was more or less neighboring my territory - only to find out he was already a generation ahead in terms of military :crazyeye:

Didn't always happen, but it was safe to assume that if it took more than ten turns to reach someone, it was risky attempting it.

For balancing game values however, Blitz is probably best because it doesn't take as long to play through ^^
I'm fine with anything really, just means I have to fiddle around with my usual playing style (I have one? xD) to accommodate the faster speed.

I've talked to Afforess yesterday, this is the plan:

autoplay some games on blitz speed; autoplay is needed in order to collect data quickly; then we can move to slower gamespeed and fine-tune balance by actually playing. I'll upload some starting saves with some preset conditions and I'll ask anyone willing to help, to autoplay those saves until the last turn, posting saves every 85 turns so that we can check balance. I'll post something more later today.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13366602 said:
I've talked to Afforess yesterday, this is the plan:

autoplay some games on blitz speed; autoplay is needed in order to collect data quickly; then we can move to slower gamespeed and fine-tune balance by actually playing. I'll upload some starting saves with some preset conditions and I'll ask anyone willing to help, to autoplay those saves until the last turn, posting saves every 85 turns so that we can check balance. I'll post something more later today.

Will this be during or after the latest Gameplay Comparison thread? :)
Just started revisiting the initial save with the recent revision (Though I'm on 771 not 772, it's close enough I think ^^)
 
Right now we're more trimming techs than adding techs :lol:

While I'm not opposed in principle to adding new techs, I wouldn't want to add any tech that doesn't have good ties to the rest of the tech tree and isn't adequately supported with content. I do have several techs that I wouldn't mind seeing get cut out.
 
I'd be willing to Autoplay saves, you set the game, I'll auto play and have automatic saves set at 85 Turns, your just after the saves isn't.

Or I could just auto play Cntl-shift-x for 85 turns, and give my impressions after each bracket.

Can we set the saves to go to a specific folder??

If so?? how?? too lazy to look really...heh heh heh... ok I'll look into it. ;)
 
I'd be willing to Autoplay saves, you set the game, I'll auto play and have automatic saves set at 85 Turns, your just after the saves isn't.

Or I could just auto play Cntl-shift-x for 85 turns, and give my impressions after each bracket.

Can we set the saves to go to a specific folder??

If so?? how?? too lazy to look really...heh heh heh... ok I'll look into it. ;)
Thank you IPEX, there's just a couple of things yet to fix and then we'll start testing again.
 
Revision 773

  • Removed Stock Exchanging, Derivatives, Weather Forecasting, Meteorology
  • Removed Corporation bonus to whales
  • Tweaked difficulty maintenance modifiers
  • Free Market gives -10% hammers (previously -5% hammers)
  • Free Market does not give +1 commerce for farms
  • Townclock gives +3 hammers (previously was +10% maintenance +15% hammers)
  • Foundry gives +5 hammers (previously +25% hammers +5% commerce), employs 1 citizen
  • Library gives +15% science (previously +20% science)
  • Public school gives +7 science beakers (previously +20% science)
  • All monestaries to +2 science beaker (previously +10% science). Humanism subtracts 1 science beaker.
  • National Weather Service requires Flight, (previously Meteorology)
  • Estate no longer gives -2 food, gives +2 hammers +2 commerce (previously +1 hammers, +2 commerce), employs 1 citizen
  • Workhouse no longer gives -1 happy, employs 1 citizen
  • Fixed bug in multiple production that decreased overflow hammers for subsequent productions in the same turn
  • AI will no longer offer open borders unless they need more foreign connectedness or access to territory for war
  • Improve Civic AI logging
  • Improve AI civic building production modifier valuation
 
Once again I've been away for some time and the mod is crazy different when I get back! :crazyeye:

One thing I don't understand: why the change in bonuses from buildings from +% to a flat bonus?
Granted I have yet to actually try that, but it gives me the feeling that the terrain surrounding the city won't be as important as before?
 
Once again I've been away for some time and the mod is crazy different when I get back! :crazyeye:

One thing I don't understand: why the change in bonuses from buildings from +% to a flat bonus?
Granted I have yet to actually try that, but it gives me the feeling that the terrain surrounding the city won't be as important as before?

In general, flat bonuses favor weaker cities, and therefore, weaker civilizations. Also they limit the effect of the multiplier.
 
Revision 775

Cache AI_openBordersTradeVal

I updated the AI's valuation of open borders, and it was quite a bit slower. I added caching to mitigate the slowdown. The AI will now only open borders if they need more foreign connectedness or need open borders to help with their war plans.
 
In general, flat bonuses favor weaker cities, and therefore, weaker civilizations. Also they limit the effect of the multiplier.

Sorry, I really dislike latest changes.
First of all, Aforess, you've said that you will find a way that smaller civs ( with 1-2-3 cities) can play too. But this changes are completely opposite this goal!
Now, big cities is seriously weaker. It is the second nerf them after trade routes. Now you HAVE TO create many cities to play, it is impossible to play with 3-4 cities, and don't suck on science. So, you speaking one, and doing another, isn't it?

And I suppose it is a global balance change, it should be discussing on forum. It influence the game style even more than trade routes. And there was no discussion, you only change everything as you decision.

Does it only my feeling that latest changes - in wrong direction? Diplomacy and trade was destroyed with removing trade routes, and now city specialization is destroyed with latest revisions. The game becoming one if it "warmonger" games.
Have some people ( not just me ) desire to create a parallel branch - without this changes?

P.S. I have read the c++ code of finding best trade routes. There are tons of possibilites to optimize it. Saying it as pro in algorithms&maths. So, if the problem with trade routes in perfomance - I think it is not the problem, it is solvable.
 
Sorry, I really dislike latest changes.
First of all, Aforess, you've said that you will find a way that smaller civs ( with 1-2-3 cities) can play too. But this changes are completely opposite this goal!
Now, big cities is seriously weaker. It is the second nerf them after trade routes. Now you HAVE TO create many cities to play, it is impossible to play with 3-4 cities, and don't suck on science. So, you speaking one, and doing another, isn't it?

And I suppose it is a global balance change, it should be discussing on forum. It influence the game style even more than trade routes. And there was no discussion, you only change everything as you decision.

Does it only my feeling that latest changes - in wrong direction? Diplomacy and trade was destroyed with removing trade routes, and now city specialization is destroyed with latest revisions. The game becoming one if it "warmonger" games.
Have some people ( not just me ) desire to create a parallel branch - without this changes?

P.S. I have read the c++ code of finding best trade routes. There are tons of possibilites to optimize it. Saying it as pro in algorithms&maths. So, if the problem with trade routes in perfomance - I think it is not the problem, it is solvable.

Hey man, calm down. :nono:
This is not the way to discuss things. You might have some point but if this is your way to discuss, better you think twice about your way of posting before you do it.
And FYI we've discussed about trading routes and other changes. Afforess isn't the only developer here although he's the mod founder.
 
Sorry, I really dislike latest changes.

Don't apologize, you are free to express opinions!

First of all, Aforess, you've said that you will find a way that smaller civs ( with 1-2-3 cities) can play too. But this changes are completely opposite this goal!

Why do you think so? Do you have evidence that this harms smaller civilizations?

From my experience smaller civilizations tend not to keep up in terms of city size and specialization, so flat commerce and yield benefits them more than a multiplier would. Yes, the multiplier reduction hurts big cities. It was ridiculous to have cities with +200% :hammers: or +150% :commerce: and +150% :science:. I didn't remove all multipliers because, as you say, it would defeat specialization. It is still very attainable to have +100% :hammers: or +100% :science:, just harder.

The game is much more balanced now. Before these changes it was necessary to give smaller civilizations 100's or 1000's of free science beakers a turn by tech diffusion just to keep up. Now they can get a fraction of that and still maintain pace.

Now, big cities is seriously weaker. It is the second nerf them after trade routes. Now you HAVE TO create many cities to play, it is impossible to play with 3-4 cities, and don't suck on science.

Multipliers benefited larger civilizations more than smaller ones. Larger civilizations could afford to build all the buildings, attain more multipliers, and tech faster (leading to more buildings, more multipliers, and so on)

So, you speaking one, and doing another, isn't it?

I don't think I am, but feel free to prove me wrong.

And I suppose it is a global balance change, it should be discussing on forum. It influence the game style even more than trade routes. And there was no discussion, you only change everything as you decision.

There is discussion, right here. That's what I want. It's better to make changes, test, and discuss than sit around in a committee all day theorizing about what might or might not work. We can test what works, change back what doesn't. We use source control (svn), history of changes are never lost.

Does it only my feeling that latest changes - in wrong direction? Diplomacy and trade was destroyed with removing trade routes, and now city specialization is destroyed with latest revisions. The game becoming one if it "warmonger" games.

I'm trying to do just the opposite. I don't want warmongering to be the only strategy to victory. Before revision 750ish, conquest was the only attainable victory condition. If you have been paying careful attention, you would notice that I have left cultural multipliers almost completely untouched by my changes. That makes a culture victory easier, while the reduced hammers make warmongering harder.

P.S. I have read the c++ code of finding best trade routes. There are tons of possibilities to optimize it. Saying it as pro in algorithms&maths. So, if the problem with trade routes in performance - I think it is not the problem, it is solvable.

Performance was the least of the problems with trade routes. The largest problem was that it was an opaque, hidden mechanic that gave players no control.

Also I find the claims that trade routes mattered for diplomacy very curious. I know for myself, that I never once considered the diplomatic value of trade routes until after I had removed them and a few players complained. Maybe you should run a poll, and find out if anyone other than yourself actually cared?
 
Back
Top Bottom