Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Well... exactly. I know there are exceptions to the rule and that's what makes it tough to envision how it SHOULD play out in game mechanics terms.
Animal Behaviour
- Thread starter Toffer90
- Start date
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Is anyone who is playtesting on current SVN assets finding that animals are a touch too frequent for their tastes? I'm thinking of reducing the volume by just a little.
I play with Raging Barbarians so I'm not sure if my feedback is valid, but I feel the animal spawn rates are about okay right now. I liked your last tweak, which I feel improved the frequency of "useful" animals (that have herd buildings), although some are still fairly rare primarily because the tiles they can spawn from are rare (llama especially, but also camel and pig). Previously, I would be lucky to see more than a half dozen of a given useful animal, to say nothing of whether I could attack it before an AI hunter did so, and whether I'd manage to capture it depending on how well-promoted my own hunter was. (Previously I had been editing the SpawnInfos manually to make all basic tiles valid for spawning, and to remove the region limits, on said herd animals. This tended to spawn way, way too many animals, so much that the AI couldn't deal with it. This was without using the spawn rate modifier.)
Some of this might be the region-specific spawns but I tend to play pangea maps so have access to all regions.
As an aside, maybe a game option to disable the region-specific spawns, and a second game option to disable the tile-specific spawns (in this case, with a corresponding large reduction in spawn rate, given my experience with the above)? But I don't know how much work is involved in adding such things.
Some of this might be the region-specific spawns but I tend to play pangea maps so have access to all regions.
As an aside, maybe a game option to disable the region-specific spawns, and a second game option to disable the tile-specific spawns (in this case, with a corresponding large reduction in spawn rate, given my experience with the above)? But I don't know how much work is involved in adding such things.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Raging barbs doesn't influence the animal spawn rate so it's certainly valid. It does influence barb spawn rates and we don't have many barb spawns setup at the moment but maybe next version we will.
When you have a situation where the tiles are minimal, there is now an offsetting modifier to help those animals spawn more frequently. My first iteration of this modification led to far too many spawning so I had to make it much more subtle but at least now it's got SOME normalization taking place based on the amount of tiles the unit CAN spawn in on the EXISTING map. From here, some adjustments to the spawn rates on specific animals will be more effective. AKA, animals with limited spawning grounds are more likely to spawn as a result and vice versa - animals with more spawning grounds available are less likely to spawn in a given plot.
The region specific spawning seems kinda important to me to keep a given area in balance. The game isn't intended to let a player get EVERY animal.
One last point of feedback I forgot.
Generally speaking my experience with land animals is fine, but sea animals are another matter. I feel like there are way too many by the time you can get around to a decent sea force (seafaring in mid-classical). They also tend to be a lot stronger than land animals generally, it is rare for my outriggers to survive more than three fights unless they get a chance to heal, even with level 3 or 4 of the sea hunter promotion. By the time I start really exploring the ocean (again, at seafaring), sea animals - especially salt-water crocodiles in those regions they can spawn - are at 1-per-tile density.
Strength-wise I think the sea animals are okay, but I feel the spawn rate should be reduced, or maybe just delayed. This might be exacerbated by the lack of blitz-like promotion (at least at any tech level I've played) for ships like one does with master hunters, or the lack of first strikes that hunter/masters pick up incidentally from other promotions. Also the lack of March-equivalent to reduce time spent healing (they do have the self-repair promotion line but this only helps when buildup).
Or maybe I'm going about it wrong and should be using stronger ships for sea hunting, like the galley or trireme? (I tend to rely on the outrigger since they get more experience from buildings, being naval and explorer, versus the naval-only ships.)
Generally speaking my experience with land animals is fine, but sea animals are another matter. I feel like there are way too many by the time you can get around to a decent sea force (seafaring in mid-classical). They also tend to be a lot stronger than land animals generally, it is rare for my outriggers to survive more than three fights unless they get a chance to heal, even with level 3 or 4 of the sea hunter promotion. By the time I start really exploring the ocean (again, at seafaring), sea animals - especially salt-water crocodiles in those regions they can spawn - are at 1-per-tile density.
Strength-wise I think the sea animals are okay, but I feel the spawn rate should be reduced, or maybe just delayed. This might be exacerbated by the lack of blitz-like promotion (at least at any tech level I've played) for ships like one does with master hunters, or the lack of first strikes that hunter/masters pick up incidentally from other promotions. Also the lack of March-equivalent to reduce time spent healing (they do have the self-repair promotion line but this only helps when buildup).
Or maybe I'm going about it wrong and should be using stronger ships for sea hunting, like the galley or trireme? (I tend to rely on the outrigger since they get more experience from buildings, being naval and explorer, versus the naval-only ships.)
Aside from that, reefs and coral reefs are pretty much everywhere at the coast (I have tried several different map scripts). Before Seafaring (when you can go around these hazards), you have to stop every once in a while for healing, even when you haven't met any enemies (animals included). And that's usually when animals start attacking.
Another problem is the unexplored islands. It is a bit often that you pop enemies. And since only your era is taken into account (or the era of the tech leader), these barbarians often have the most modern navy in the world. When I send out my first rafts (around 20000 BC or so), they pop an island resulting in barbarian canoes! I think we are in a freeze period right now, so this cannot be corrected now, but is it really necessary that babarians seem to be the tech leader by about half a dozen columns? You'd think they would have a civilization of their own.
Another problem is the unexplored islands. It is a bit often that you pop enemies. And since only your era is taken into account (or the era of the tech leader), these barbarians often have the most modern navy in the world. When I send out my first rafts (around 20000 BC or so), they pop an island resulting in barbarian canoes! I think we are in a freeze period right now, so this cannot be corrected now, but is it really necessary that babarians seem to be the tech leader by about half a dozen columns? You'd think they would have a civilization of their own.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
What the barbs "know" in tech is related to the number of Civs they have "contact" with (proximity) and since barbs spawn all over the globe..... Iirc thye can "know" up to 70% of the known world tech. And also their "Flavor" towards Techs is Military.
JosEPh
JosEPh
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Well... that CAN be adjusted I think. There's a global for sea animal spawn rate base somewhere. I can adjust that but I need to figure out which direction to adjust it.
Outriggers should be good. My wife and I are playing a test game as a team. She built something like 12 outriggers to try and explore and all were dead not far out. I built two and have had one survive to become mostly immune to all animal attacks. She was encountering a small swarm of crocs that were pouncing on her ships as soon as they went into a reef. I didn't encounter crocs until most of the world's coasts had been explored. My conclusion from this is that different games present different challenges.
I guess what gets me is 'why do small boats like outriggers and smaller get hurt by reefs at all? Wouldn't it be pretty much safe for them?' The system needs deepened I think.
You will never pop an enemy with a kayak or outrigger. That's what they are for, getting no negative results from goodies. I NEVER explore with rafts for this reason. (And because they are too slow.) Rafts are just good for early transportation.
Spawns from goody huts are not based on any player's tech level, including the barbs. They ARE based on the era in which you are in. That's it. Hydro's impending era splits might help to narrow the spawn field of varying potential a bit.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
It's considered a negative result to pop enemies. I get what you're saying but resolution will have to wait for Hydro's splitting up of the era.Well ... it wouldn't necessarily be a negative result if the enemies weren't so overwhelming in both strength and numbers. It might be an interesting kind of positive result if the enemy was an era or so behind.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
This would be loverly because we would then not require a file for each map that has to replace the default one. Huge amount of work.
I have no trouble exploring the world with my first 5 outriggers. I find birds to be more a threat to them than crocs. Are you building the two national Wonders that improve the sea hunting ability of your outriggers?
I am working on the Hunter Biltz promotions and have it in place for the normal hunters and will be putting it in place for ships.
Adjustments for spawn rate of land animals, sea animals and Neanderthals (also not yet implemented Bandits) can be found in XML\A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines.xml
NEANDERTHAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER
ANIMAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER
SEA_ANIMAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER
BANDIT_SPAWN_MODIFIER
KILLERRABBIT_SPAWN_MODIFIER
The values are a % adjustment of the default values in the SpawnInfos file for that group of critters. So 100% means default spawn rate 50% will reduce to to half the number spawned while 200% would double it. 0% turns that group off completely. Which is what I do to Neanderthals.ANIMAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER
SEA_ANIMAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER
BANDIT_SPAWN_MODIFIER
KILLERRABBIT_SPAWN_MODIFIER
KILLERRABBIT_SPAWN_MODIFIER is a joke/Easter Egg and should not be used. You would need a bunch of Knights to even dent it and it has been known to take out a tank with a single swipe of its paws. The value was also used for mermaids when we had them in game.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Ok, because the iTurns values are the base. There, higher values mean less spawns. We have to think of it as you get one chance out of that number each round in each plot that qualifies as a basis. I also found that my own modifier values for the differing player groups operated in reverse to what I thought I'd setup... low is more. So if those globals work where low values mean lower spawns then cool. I noticed some modifiers were inverted to work that way but I was going to have to look into the code again to see how those specifically were done. Thanks for sharing your knowledge on them so I don't have to try to decipher the math again!
Looking forward to this! Both for boats and basic hunters.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Basic hunters already have Blitz merged in with Hunter 4. I want to change it a bit but want to get the terrain promotions sorted out first.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Exactly.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Hunter 3 is so unnecessary that I've never discovered Hunter 4... And the few units that have selected Hunter 3 have not qualified for Hunter 4... I'll have to look into what's keeping them from being able to take it.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
It is probably the terrain 3 requirement as hunter 3 and (wood3 or gur 3) are the prerequisites.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Ah... yeah probably. Not something that would normally factor high on the list of perceived necessity so that's very likely it.
Wood3 is the wood attack promo, which makes it very interesting. Unless you play with Reckless Animals, most of them aren't very likely to attack you, but stay in the forest, so this is one of the more important promos for hunters (both master and regular hunters). And if you stumble on a big cat, you need every bonus you can get.
I usually take the hunter and the woodland promos for all the hunting units (and then vision and bottleneck promos). With these improvements, Hunting Tactics (with the regular hunter unit) is usually the time when humans start to rule the planet.
I usually take the hunter and the woodland promos for all the hunting units (and then vision and bottleneck promos). With these improvements, Hunting Tactics (with the regular hunter unit) is usually the time when humans start to rule the planet.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Yep I go for wood 3 before I even worry about Combat 1 or healing for my Tracker/hunters. And then I put off Subdue 2 until I have Combat 3.
I had been using Peace among NPCs almost exclusively until lately with Stay Out Off. When I do Not use PaNPCs in conjunction with SO Off, the predators are everywhere and even improving a tile in your 1st city 9 tiles takes massive body guards for that gatherer to work.
Just started a new game with Neander Cities On, SO Off, and PaNPCs Off. Preds are prolific. But it's on Normal GS because of something else I want to get too rather quickly in the tech tree.
JosEPh
I had been using Peace among NPCs almost exclusively until lately with Stay Out Off. When I do Not use PaNPCs in conjunction with SO Off, the predators are everywhere and even improving a tile in your 1st city 9 tiles takes massive body guards for that gatherer to work.
Just started a new game with Neander Cities On, SO Off, and PaNPCs Off. Preds are prolific. But it's on Normal GS because of something else I want to get too rather quickly in the tech tree.
JosEPh
