Anno Domini Classic: discussion thread part 3 (warning: lots of images on page one)

[Blue Monkey]

Elephant Domestication tech icon done and posted with dl link.


EDIT: I realized that to get that coffee I'd have to wash dishes, so I did the Elephant Training tech icon instead.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

They're all looking good. I'm just going to have to get off my behind and put them into the mod . Thanks again !!

 

[Yoda Power]

No offence, but isn't it impossible to domesticate elephants? Isn't that why they capture them in the wild and then train them?

 

[Blue Monkey]

No offence, but isn't it impossible to domesticate elephants? Isn't that why they capture them in the wild and then train them?

You are right; that is the way elephants are domesticated in India.

According to Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
"Domesticate:
1. to convert (animals, plants, etc.) to domestic uses; tame." I think we can agree that taming is done to individuals as well as species.

and the American Heritage Dictionary
"Domesticate:
...3.a. To train or adapt (an animal or plant) to live in a human environment and be of use to humans." This definition clearly includes training an individual animal, since it would be quite Lamarckian to consider species trainable.

 

[Yoda Power]

Ohwell, I always thought of domestication as to be able to breed animals in capticity (spell??). Atleast that's the definition Jared Diamond uses in Guns, Gems and Steel, I think.

BTW I just noticed I ended up in your sig.

 

[Quinzy]

Captivity

And either or, I suppose. Semantics semantics

 

[Blue Monkey]

Atleast that's the definition Jared Diamond uses in Guns, Gems and Steel, I think.

You understand correctly how elephants have to be handled. I needed a word to distinguish the icon from the Training icon. Words are nuanced, and one author may choose a particular shade of meaning which differs from another's choice. That's why the dictionaries have multiple definitions for many words.

And either or, I suppose. Semantics semantics

BTW I just noticed I ended up in your sig.

Never argue semantics with a semiotician (re my postcount title). We usually end up with a dissertation where others would write a telegram.

 

[Stormrage]

Oh, so thats what I am..

 

[Blue Monkey]

Oh, so thats what I am..

Myself, I prefer an adze or a celt.

 

[Keroro]

My understanding was that domestication could happen to a species, but taming is what happens to an animal. Therefore you could describe zebras as tamable but not domesticated, whereas sheep are certainly domesticated in most areas of the world.

 

[rifleman]

...you could describe zebras as tamable but not domesticated...

Shhhh...don't say that too loud. You DON'T want to get Plotinus started about domesticated zebras...not again...not...again...

"...A creature sooo foul, so cruel, that no man yet has fought with it - AND LIVED!...That Zebra's got a vicious streak in it a mile wide!..."

 

[Stormrage]

the newbies bumping ancient threads, and the Zebra discussion - 2 things that will never change here at CFC

I love this place.

 

[Blue Monkey]

My understanding was that domestication could happen to a species, but taming is what happens to an animal.

If quotations from two dictionaries are insufficient, perhaps contemplating the difference between elephants doing things like building highways or serving in combat and the experience of Siegfried and Roy would be instructive.

Edit: I guess this is one way to keep the thread on the front page until Rob's holiday is over.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

I myself am eagerly awaiting the third era of Redalert's indian cities....

 

[Plotinus]

I've always understood "domestication" to be something that happens to a species or a breed, the point being that the animals themselves are changed (not in a Lamarckian way, but through selective breeding, either consciously or unconsciously). Thus, a chicken is a domesticated jungle fowl, a dog is a domesticated wolf, and so on. I think that when you're talking about wild animals that are tamed, the term "domestication" is used loosely when this is done habitually, as with elephants, so we can talk, in a sense, of the domestication of elephants, even though there is no domestic breed of elephants. Zebras, of course, can't be domesticated in either sense, because they cannot usually be tamed in the first place. But I'm not going to start on that again.

If you think arguing about semantics with a semiotician is bad, just you try it with a philosopher.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I think that when you're talking about wild animals that are tamed, the term "domestication" is used loosely when this is done habitually, as with elephants, so we can talk, in a sense, of the domestication of elephants, even though there is no domestic breed of elephants.

Thanks, Plotinus.

The point in the first place was to lay out a sequence of techs:
Elephant Domestication > Elephant Training > Elephant Warfare
allowing a sequence of elephant units (possibly upgradeable).

Perhaps I created confusion by posting the icons out of order, as they were made. If anyone can suggest a more appropriate word, roughly synonymous with domestication and training, I'll happily consider it.

And zebras can too be domesticated for the purposes of Civ. The proof is those pictures by Frazetta and Olivia and that "Sheena, Queen of the Jungle" thingy on TV. Don't go all onto-epistemological on me about one signifier having more reality than another.

 

[rifleman]

...And zebras can too be domesticated...

NOOOoooo...[cue Plotinus' lengthy response]

@Blue Monkey - What about 'Elephant Riding', rather than 'Training'? Clearly that's a level of domestication that's beyond the simple cattle stage, and without that ability, the methods of warfare and work would be impossible. Either that or 'Elephant Skills' seems best.

 

[Kyriakos]

When will the mod be uploaded?

 

[Blue Monkey]

I voted for the elephant with swords; though actually, there would be room for a couple of these; maybe the white elephant could represent the era one elephant warfare/elephant training and the elephant with swords could be an era two warfare icon.

What about 'Elephant Riding', rather than 'Training'?

I just followed R8XFT's vocabulary: Training > Warfare. And military training of animals involves far more than riding.

Also too specific for my taste, if you mean instead of "Domestication" on the other hand: I'd like to include the concept of all the work elephants do without being ridden - everything from clearing jungle to executing prisoners. Maybe an elephant worker is coming, further down the trail.

Either that or 'Elephant Skills' seems best.

Far too generic for my taste.

Enough highjacking Rob's thread and . Anyone interested in further debate please continue in My Tech Icon Thread

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

When will the mod be uploaded?

I'm not sure; RL got in the way again ; as I stated earlier, it shouldn't be too long, but I don't want to quote any timescales. Over the next two weeks, RL will get in the way of modmaking though.