Antifa rocks!

[Lexicus]

In the United States the only racism worth talking about is white supremacy.

 

[Lexicus]

Here you are interpreting malice to people's intentions. Perfectly normal human thing to do. I've probably done it plenty of times here too, not saying you are particularly at fault or anything, and if I do it, please point it out. But. Cruelty and indifference may be the end result of their actions for sure, but I don't think many people would say that they ascribe to a world view that holds cruelty as the end goal. Quite the opposite, that's why genocides are peceded by dehumanization of the target population, because people need to feel vindicated in their feeling of righteousness in enacting the violence, for example. Hell, even 19th century colonization was masked as an humanitarian effort of civilizing "the brutes" etc.

One could perhaps even say that what you are here doing is dehumanizing your opponents (whom ever they are), by interpreting their intentions as evil, which is really a rather rare thing in humans, I'd say. And yes, you are doing it for goals that you see as good, and they are more eviller than you most likely and a threat to your life, and here I am asking for understanding "literal Nazis" etc. etc., and their actions probably result in inequity, but most like they don't see it that way. And that is the politic point to strike: make them see their double standard. Just saying, "yeah, they're evil" won't dissuade anyone. Sure it'll make you and your tribe feel good about yourselves, but what use is that if your goal is peace and understanding?

I don't think you are quite right here. Saying the cruelty is the point is not to say that these people are being willfully evil.

 

[Rashiminos]

In the United States the only racism worth talking about is white supremacy.

Would you agree that abused often become abusers themselves?

 

[Lexicus]

Would you agree that abused often become abusers themselves?

I certainly can agree. In fact one example of this occurring is the history of the state of Israel. But I am not really sure how this applies to the case of the United States.

 

[Rashiminos]

Looks like the lessons have been learned all too well, then.

 

[Peuri]

I don't think you are quite right here. Saying the cruelty is the point is not to say that these people are being willfully evil.

Hmm. I had a thunk about it, and I guess you are right if the person in question has already sufficiently dehumanized the target of the cruelty, in which case the cruelty in and of itself can perhaps be seen as a virtuous act by the actor in some way, such as protecting their own in-group from outside harm, as in the article. Which is what racism does I guess, but still I'd hold it as an important distinction that the cruelty in and of itself is not the goal of the action, but something other, and the cruelty is the way to achieve the other goal.

Think of Stalin (I was going to say Hitler, but that would have been boring ) for example. The cruelty Stalin exerted on the kulaks wasn't the goal of his action, it was just the means of reaching the goal of a, to-be, communist utopia.

 

[Lexicus]

Hmm. I had a thunk about it, and I guess you are right if the person in question has already sufficiently dehumanized the target of the cruelty, in which case the cruelty in and of itself can perhaps be seen as a virtuous act by the actor in some way, such as protecting their own in-group from outside harm, as in the article. Which is what racism does I guess, but still I'd hold it as an important distinction that the cruelty in and of itself is not the goal of the action, but something other, and the cruelty is the way to achieve the other goal.

Think of Stalin (I was going to say Hitler, but that would have been boring ) for example. The cruelty Stalin exerted on the kulaks wasn't the goal of his action, it was just the means of reaching the goal of a, to-be, communist utopia.

Well I mean I think that to some extent the cruelty is the point insofar as I think a lot of Trump folks actually do take a sadistic pleasure in what they see as criminals getting what they deserve...sadistic pleasure in punishment is actually a feature of American culture broadly, among both liberals and conservatives (in different contexts), in a way that I think might be difficult for someone from Europe to understand.

But yes, otherwise I would say that the process of dehumanization has advanced sufficiently that we see it as people getting what they deserve AND as an essential cornerstone to maintaining an orderly society, we do not think of it as evil. This applies not only to migrant detention, where the more-or-less explicit purpose of Trump's policies is to deter people from coming to the US, but also to the prison system more generally. In the latter case the idea is sort of that punishment will deter future offenses, but all the data show basically the opposite of that, and Americans mostly seem not to care. As the link above discusses efforts to reform the justice system have run aground on the rocks of Americans' apparent exultation in punishment for its own sake.

edit: fixed mistaken link

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Peuri; if you can manage to understand and tolerate bigots without compromising the safety, security and wellbeing of minorities go ahead but I genuinely and sincerely believe it comes at the expense of minorities.

 

[Rashiminos]

Refusing to understand and tolerate bigots will eventually lead to compromising the safety, security, and wellbeing of marginalized populations.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

First they came for the Nazis but I didn't say anything because I am not a nazi

And then they left

 

[Lexicus]

Refusing to understand and tolerate bigots will eventually lead to compromising the safety, security, and wellbeing of marginalized populations.

I mean, not if we compromise the safety, security, and wellbeing of bigots first.

 

[Rashiminos]

I mean, not if we compromise the safety, security, and wellbeing of bigots first.

Well, you can always hope to win your eliminationist war first. Don't be discouraged by the litany of failures before you.

 

[Senethro]

Refusing to understand and tolerate bigots will eventually lead to compromising the safety, security, and wellbeing of marginalized populations.

This can be read as a sort of threat, if you think about it...

 

[Rashiminos]

The question is whether it should be. Rail crossing lights do not signal an intention to ram your vehicle with a locomotive.

 

[Senethro]

The question is whether it should be. Rail crossing lights do not signal an intention to ram your vehicle with a locomotive.

Then what is your signal indicative of? Warning signals are only effective if they communicate a clear threat.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Imagine being so broke brained that you think keeping bigots marginalised is dangerous for their victims

 

[Rashiminos]

Two flavors: Why the Versailles treaty made Nazism inevitable...
The "bigots" become the marginalized population. (American colonization)

Maybe they just did the physical intimidation thing wrong. Did they forget The Prince?

Imagine being so broke brained that you think keeping bigots marginalised is dangerous for their victims

If supporting antifa is a sign of good mental health, I'd rather be ill.

 

[Peuri]

Peuri; if you can manage to understand and tolerate bigots without compromising the safety, security and wellbeing of minorities go ahead but I genuinely and sincerely believe it comes at the expense of minorities.

If "white supremacy" is really as big of a problem as you and others here exert, then the only way forward is to try to understand it in their own terms in order to protect the very people you are seeking to protect, and to create an unifying identity with them to prevent the dehumanization. Hence things like burning American flags, attacking Jeffreson as a racist etc. does not help to dissuade conservatives (which are implied to be racists) to ally with you, because they are sacred symbol for them. As silly as it is. Further radicalizartion only leads to radicalization on the other side too. I'd love to berate the religious every day, because they are all simpletons to me basically (while in truth I am the simpleton when compared to some religious people), but that is of no use in making them apostates. I frequent an atheist forum too, where the religious come to talk at times. Most atheists there are total *donkey-hats* to them. I am sure no one who comes there as a religious person leaves an apostate. Same with "white supremacy". You have to be able to see the world from their point of view truly, not just the caricature you paint of them, if you want to dispel their racism. I understand that it must suck to have to try to reach a people with a different set of values, but it's a democracy. The demos rules. If the demos sucks, well, too bad. That's what you have to work with.

 

[Senethro]

What are effective methods of appeasement then?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Is "bigot" now also being used interchangeably with "racist" and "white supremacist" (and presumably "nazi")?