Antifa rocks!

[Timsup2nothin]

They're all going to follow you there, i heard about it in a podcast

Very doubtful. Belize is too small for them to feel like they have a safe distance.

 

[Imaus]

I am shocked, simply shocked, that you would take this position.



Well except in the sense that he was a beacon of tolerating the Nazis in government but yes

If you just looked at the Numbers, the Nazis were a small but active and damned-they-won't-go-away group. Hindenburg and most of the Capitalists and Conservatives thought they could control them, hoping Prussian Militarism alone would win out. To that end, the Nazis were just rabid dogs to be thrown at the Communists, Socialists, and Social Democrats; who the 'old guard' really feared and had been fighting since the 1880s, if not earlier, along with Zentrum.

What they forgot, or didn't count on, is that Hitler didn't give a damn about cheating, or outright changing the rules of the game. And that Hindenburg was bloody old and couldn't be around forever to keep Hitler down - by his last years, he basically gave Hitler everything he wanted.

 

[bernie14]

It's a nefarious plan tim. The podcast mentioned that they plan to take over the government and outlaw insulin for pets and potato salad sandwiches

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It's a nefarious plan tim. The podcast mentioned that they plan to take over the government and outlaw insulin for pets and potato salad sandwiches

I don't think they have insulin for pets, so no need to outlaw it. I'm not sure they have reliable sources of insulin for people. Anyone I try to sell to that is insulin dependent I recommend securing their own import source...which is what I would do for my dog if she goes.

Hmmm.

Maybe I need to look into setting up a supply line. Profits?

 

[bernie14]

Tim, you dirty capitalist!

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Tim, you dirty capitalist!

Yep. You didn't know?

 

[Imaus]

Reportedly in Tacoma, comrade Van Spronsen or Emma Durutti, if they were really Trans as is being reported- 69, attacked a privately-run (or ICE?) Detention center under DHS control. They apparently threw tanks of fuel at the place, shot at officers, and died.

Deb Bartley, a friend of Van Spronsen’s for about 20 years, described him as an anarchist and anti-fascist, and she believes his attack on the detention center was intended to provoke a fatal conflict.

“He was ready to end it,” Bartley said. “I think this was a suicide. But then he was able to kind of do it in a way that spoke to his political beliefs … I know he went down there knowing he was going to die.”

She and other friends of Van Spronsen got letters in the mail “just saying goodbye.” He also wrote what she referred to as a manifesto, which she declined to discuss in detail but predicted would be taken by authorities.

...Weird flex overall, but okay. Definitely seems more Suicide-by-Cop. I know the feeling. Attack something of the establishment you vehemently hate and go out with a bang. A story that permeates both sides.

Rest well, comrade, your struggle is over.

Personally, I'm not so stroked about the whole immigration issue, as both parties threat refugees/migrants/illegals/whatever like ****, and it's not my focus and I'm not some Open-Borders leftist, but the demonization of ICE isn't going to end and I can see more incidents like this occurring.

There has been a alleged Manifesto, linked. Audio link in manifesto linked here.

I guess I can just say...I understand where they came from. I'm meh on the whole thing overall, though their call to arm up and organise is, once more, one of my own talking points.

 

[Rashiminos]

I mean literal white nationalists still operate on this website with impunity so where is the bias?

Maybe you should organize a push for a mod-on-sight policy for white nationalists trespassing on your forum, if you find one. Make sure to separate them from their nonwhite "friends."

Was gonna stay clear of that particular argument but the complete disrespect for forum rules got to me. I understand that due to the nature of OT there has to be some leniency, but my own game discussions on CFC(well, not so much in the Civ6 forum) led me to expect better from users here. I guess I just wasn't around long enough to know better back when I gained such respect for this site.

I can't speak for this forum, but process manipulation is increasingly a thing. The rules are designed to be used in particular directions instead of targeting the violations as literally depicted.

***

Flippant attacks on federal facilities haven't been a good idea since before the 1860s. He got smoked.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Can we at least refer to the attacker with the proper pronouns, it leaves me a really bad taste in my mouth and feels like it's weaponising her condition against her. If someone claims to be trans why would you doubt them?

Even a cursory understanding of the science shows that its clearly not a choice or a fantasy but an actual medical condition alleviated (to varying degrees) by transitioning both socially and medically.

 

[Rashiminos]

Take them in as refugees.

Provided that they'd prefer not to stay in the newly autonomous regions, sure. (Also provided they're not centrists trying to negotiate a new compromise, but I'm sure both partisan sides can sufficiently collude on that point.

Can we at least refer to the attacker with the proper pronouns, it leaves me a really bad taste in my mouth and feels like it's weaponising her condition against her. If someone claims to be trans why would you doubt them?

Even a cursory understanding of the science shows that its clearly not a choice or a fantasy but an actual medical condition alleviated (to varying degrees) by transitioning both socially and medically.

Given the nature of his attacks and his intended message... uhh, No. Sorry, not sorry.

 

[bernie14]

Can we at least refer to the attacker with the proper pronouns, it leaves me a really bad taste in my mouth and feels like it's weaponising her condition against her. If someone claims to be trans why would you doubt them?

Even a cursory understanding of the science shows that its clearly not a choice or a fantasy but an actual medical condition alleviated (to varying degrees) by transitioning both socially and medically.

Well, in their manifesto, they do refer to themself as a boy...

 

[Imaus]

Provided that they'd prefer not to stay in the newly autonomous regions, sure. (Also provided they're not centrists trying to negotiate a new compromise, but I'm sure both partisan sides can sufficiently collude on that point.



Given the nature of his attacks and his intended message... uhh, No. Sorry, not sorry.

That's just...a dick move. What they did, that's enough to deadname them and refer to them as their non-wanted gender? WTH, dude. It's almost literally one or two letters difference and goes beyond just them but to the whole community.

Well, in their manifesto, they do refer to themself as a boy...

There is this, of course, and that'll def cause some confusion. I'll just move to a singular they.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Look, i understand the reluctance but i don't feel comfortable knowing that even the most basic of social dignities is up for debate nor my right to self-identification, maybe that isn't an issue you've had to deal with or considered in a serious way, but as someone who does deal with it on a daily basis it isn't comfortable.

Having something as basic as your identity being denied by others and being gaslit by society isn't healthly, be the person in question non-binary, agender, asigned male at birth (mtf) or male.

Obviously it's all predicated on whether they genuinely consider themselves to be trans but it's still an understandable issue of contention for me and i need to approach it from a level of sincerity.

 

[Estebonrober]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/13/us/tacoma-detention-center-shooting.html

This is not okay.

Of course neither is the private detention of humans for profit either. . . I'm morally perplexed by this situation. Both are violent acts, both should be out of bounds, I cannot condone this action anyways. Although I'll say the difference between antifa punching nazis at nazi rallies and this kind of attack is vast.

 

[Rashiminos]

That's just...a dick move. What they did, that's enough to deadname them and refer to them as their non-wanted gender? WTH, dude. It's almost literally one or two letters difference and goes beyond just them but to the whole community.

My patience for a person's preferred mannerisms and delusions isn't universally applicable. If they insist on shooting people and attempting to destroy infrastructure, then generic politeness, let alone verbal support, would not extend to them without some significant persuasion. Using deadnames is a sign of disrespect, and I have no qualms with someone giving that communicating that kind of disrespect for Spronsen (This is not to condone harmful actions against people who share his opinions, but not his actions).

 

[Imaus]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/13/us/tacoma-detention-center-shooting.html

This is not okay.

Of course neither is the private detention of humans for profit either. . . I'm morally perplexed by this situation. Both are violent acts, both should be out of bounds, I cannot condone this action anyways. Although I'll say the difference between antifa punching nazis at nazi rallies and this kind of attack is vast.

Then what can be done to stop ICE in a timely manner? What can appease those who see this as THE issue?

Should everyone bumrush them, sit-in, tear down the fences? Because waiting 2, 4, 8, maybe even 12 or 16 years - what do you do then?

We're facing an administration who does not seek compromise, who has to be strong-armed into anything and everything, and the politicians on the floor are sidelined for being hardline radicals or kow-tow out of civility. What happens then? Hope they can fight it out in the next budget and hold everything hostage?

My patience for a person's preferred mannerisms and delusions isn't universally applicable. If they insist on shooting people and attempting to destroy infrastructure, then generic politeness, let alone verbal support, would not extend to them without some significant persuasion. Using deadnames is a sign of disrespect, and I have no qualms with someone giving that communicating that kind of disrespect for Spronsen (This is not to condone harmful actions against people who share his opinions, but not his actions).

It is more than a sign of simple disrespect, but shitting on a whole community. But you do you do. The little things show more character than the large things at times.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

My patience for a person's preferred mannerisms and delusions isn't universally applicable. If they insist on shooting people and attempting to destroy infrastructure, then generic politeness, let alone verbal support, would not extend to them without some significant persuasion. Using deadnames is a sign of disrespect, and I have no qualms with someone giving that communicating that kind of disrespect for Spronsen (This is not to condone harmful actions against people who share his opinions, but not his actions).

Except deadnaming regardless of intention is offensive to transpeople and intentionally so after it's been pointed out that there is a possibility they could be a transperson.

What is the difference between intentionally deadnaming someone, regardless of their personal history and calling a poc who was a murderer or rapist or child abuser a racial slur? Does that make any sense?

 

[Rashiminos]

Look, i understand the reluctance but i don't feel comfortable knowing that even the most basic of social dignities is up for debate nor my right to self-identification, maybe that isn't an issue you've had to deal with or considered in a serious way, but as someone who does deal with it on a daily basis it isn't comfortable.

Having something as basic as your identity being denied by others and being gaslit by society isn't healthly, be the person in question non-binary, agender, asigned male at birth (mtf) or male.

Obviously it's all predicated on whether they genuinely consider themselves to be trans but it's still an understandable issue of contention for me and i need to approach it from a level of sincerity.

In a world where titles are preferred to be socially constructed, the society gets a vote on who has what titles. A practical application of ostracism is denying you your title of choice for one of society's choosing. Naturally you want the society to respect your preferred title...

Except deadnaming regardless of intention is offensive to transpeople and intentionally so after it's been pointed out that there is a possibility they could be a transperson.

What is the difference between intentionally deadnaming someone, regardless of their personal history and calling a poc who was a murderer or rapist or child abuser a racial slur? Does that make any sense?

Calling a criminal a racial slur maligns the people associated with the slur more than the criminal in question.

It is more than a sign of simple disrespect, but ****ting on a whole community. But you do you do. The little things show more character than the large things at times.

Am I to understand Spronsen was representative of the trans community as a whole, here?

 

[Imaus]

In a world where titles are preferred to be socially constructed, the society gets a vote on who has what titles. A practical application of ostracism is denying you your title of choice for one of society's choosing. Naturally you want the society to respect your preferred title...


Calling a criminal a racial slur maligns the people associated with the slur more than the criminal in question.

And calling a transperson by their deadname maligns Transpeople as a whole than the criminal in question. Do you think any Transperson would agree with deadnaming? Even if the person was an absolute piece of ****?

Now, in this case, their preferred pronoun is unknown, but it's a general aesop overall.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

How strange that the intrinsic right to self-identify for transpeople is a topic up for debate with Rashiminos/Rashers, yet he is so strident with his view that bigots should be able to sling their filth with abandon and no social or physical consequences? Surely a coincidence.

Explain to me why you think the right's of transpeople and people in general are superceded by that of the rights of the bigot.