Anyone has a viable strategy for the Scions?

[Monkeyfinger]

How long does it take for a creeper to mature to the point where it can turn into an HL?

 

[Valkrionn]

That varies. If you do NOTHING but wait, it will be able to 'mature' into Haunted Lands after 45 turns. If you engage in combat, and don't die, immediately. So generally, 45 turns, but even 1 turn is possible.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Yeah I meant just waiting around. Creepers have... issues winning combats.

 

[Valkrionn]

Sorry the answer took so long, had to find the damn promotion responsible....

They start with HUNGRY_CREEPER, which degenerates to FED_CREEPER via combat. It is also removed (degenerating in the process) by ROOTED_CREEPER, at age 45, and by the spell 'Feed Creeper', only castable by Ghostwalkers I believe. Recon line at least.

 

[Tarquelne]

They start with HUNGRY_CREEPER, which degenerates to FED_CREEPER via combat. It is also removed (degenerating in the process) by ROOTED_CREEPER, at age 45, and by the spell 'Feed Creeper', only castable by Ghostwalkers I believe. Recon line at least.

Hmm... I thought "Feed Creeper" had been removed. (Though it certainly hasn't.) It allows Creepers to gain "Fed" status if a Ghostwalker sacrifices 3 xps. It's from before Ghostwalkers could get free xps at training buildings.

I've got a question:

One of the things I've never gotten around to is giving the Scions a "real" world spell - one that involves an interesting decision with regard to when it's cast. And isn't similar to the Infernal, Calabim, or Kuro. WS, which are the ideas I keep going back too...

Anyway, at this point I'm not inclined to add such a spell unless there seems to be a need for it. Which brings me to my question: Do you guys think (for whatever reason) the Scions have a problem mid or late game? By "problem" I mean some general loss of relative civ strength that isn't offset by advantage at another stage of the game.

That's been one fairly consistent criticism for awhile, but IIRC it's generally just mentioned in passing, and not often, so I haven't been giving it much weight.

If there is a problem, though, a gets-better-if-you-wait WS could be a good solution. And let me cross something off my little list.

 

[Valkrionn]

Honestly, their lack of a worldspell has never bothered me. In a less unique civ, it would, but the Scions have so many other unique points that I don't miss it.

As for having a problem mid to late game...... I've never noticed it. In fact, in the FFPlus Team forum, there was a complaint about them being weak EARLY game.

Played the Scions more last night...I think the issue I'm having with them is that they play like a weaker version of a generic civ until you start hitting the 2nd tier techs and the cool stuff starts rolling in. A whole lot of clicking "end turn" on the way.

I see the problem with spammable Awakened spawns. Had a different thought...isn't the fluff that they start out as a small ruling class that has received the gift with a large number of still-living citizens (the Centeni, for example)? Perhaps they could gain the fallow trait during play rather than at game start?

Also, what is the deal with Velites? Why a scout with move 1?

Finally...maybe they should start with a creeper or two. Make the civ flavor more unique from the start. Not like creepers are overpowering or anything.

The part about Awakened spawns referred to an earlier post... Was a suggestion to make the Shrine to Kylorin function like the new Jotnar shrine if FFPlus, spawning an awakened when built. I pointed out that that could lead to some INCREDIBLY rapid expansion.

This is also where the idea for the scout->creeper change came from.


All that said... A worldspell would still be nice, so long as it has some strategy to it's use.

 

[WarKirby]

it'd be nice to see a worldspell possibly relating to how much Haunted Lands you have.

What it would do though, I'm not sure. hmm


I still like the "resurrect a dead hero" idea best.

 

[Tarquelne]

I still like the "resurrect a dead hero" idea best.

I'd forgotten about that - yeah, that's a good one. If it ranked the heroes best-to-worst and the spell give the single best "available" hero that'd fit the bill well: Better heros tend to arrive and die later, so it's a better-if-you-wait spell. And there'd be an interesting decision. Cast it now and you'll get a hero, cast it later and you might get a better one.

If no one comes up with a better idea within a few days AND that spell can be done as a module, I'll make it. (If it can't work as a module then we'll have to actually figure out whether the spell is balanced or not.)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

that's one great idea but I'll be fine with just create dark council even if it doesn't make it in. that's how good the scions are, you've made a terrific job here Tarq. they're very interesting, arguably better than any FFH civ actually. I don't like playing as them much right now due to me still not grasping their unique mechanics, but I still love them.

 

[WarKirby]

I'd forgotten about that - yeah, that's a good one. If it ranked the heroes best-to-worst and the spell give the single best "available" hero that'd fit the bill well: Better heros tend to arrive and die later, so it's a better-if-you-wait spell. And there'd be an interesting decision. Cast it now and you'll get a hero, cast it later and you might get a better one.

I think a simpler implementation, if possible, would be for it to only resurrect a hero who has died in the last x turns. thusly, you'd have to use it shortly after someone dies if you want them.

Not necessarily "better if you wait", but more "use it at the perfect opportunity"

 

[Iskar Jarak]

would it be possible to make it not work if it was a scion unit that killed the hero, not many people willing to join with their killers.
Just a thought

 

[WarKirby]

But that would be the whole point.

The scions do rather have a history of forceful domination. See Enginer Corps, Archon's rule, etc.

 

[Iceciro]

Just make sure you make it so if I take say, Valin Phanuel, he doesn't immediately bolt because I don't have Order.

 

[Tarquelne]

Just make sure you make it so if I take say, Valin Phanuel, he doesn't immediately bolt because I don't have Order.

Hmm... "Abandon" is a unitinfos tag. So maybe the spell'd require new versions of each religious hero.
EDIT: I see there's a "nonabandon" tag in promotions.

 

[Iceciro]

Hmm... "Abandon" is a unitinfos tag. So maybe the spell'd require new versions of each religious hero.
EDIT: I see there's a "nonabandon" tag in promotions.

Success.

 

[ExMachina]

Do you guys think (for whatever reason) the Scions have a problem mid or late game? By "problem" I mean some general loss of relative civ strength that isn't offset by advantage at another stage of the game.

I personally think Scions have a big problem mid game because of the way they expand, and probably also because they need such a large variety of technologies. I don't know if it'd be worthwhile to tweak the Awakened spawn rate (maybe remove the diminishing return/limit?) or make Awakened/Reborn slightly cheaper.

 

[Iceciro]

Or just not make me have to go all the way to Drama, Sorcery AND Religious Law.

Honestly, why drama? Why can't Halls of the Covenant just be bigger shrines?

That sucks. The main problem I have with the scions is that there is no Tech Path options, you need ALL the freakin techpaths.

 

[Sisonpyh]

A bit confused about how I obtain Korinna the Black Lady. Civopedia says she requires the Hunting tech but I haven't been given the option to build her at all the first 200 turns.

 

[Iceciro]

Are you Korinna as a leader? She comes in for free if you're The Risen Emperor a turn after you found your first city as Korinna the Protector - which can then upgrade to the Black Lady with Hunting or Red Lady with Bronze Working.

Korinna the leader gets to build the Vacant Mausoleum lategame and summon the Emperor as a butt-kicking combat unit instead.

 

[Sisonpyh]

Yeah, she's the leader. Good thing I rushed Sorcery then.