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Apparently the Americas were first discovered by muslim explorers :)

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Kyriakos, Nov 16, 2014.

  1. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Oligarchic implies one being rich (they rose from the non-aristocratic, merchant class). Aristocratic just means having a noble line, ie be deemed as a family of importance for the area (eg descent from some king or other notable).

    Often the aristocrats had lost their wealth, so the term does not signify actual power in money ;)
     
  2. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    In some areas being a Knight or a Noble was nothing rare.

    For example in the 16th century in the Polish region of Mazovia the nobility was ca. 23% of its population (of course about half of them were females). I recall that in some other kingdom there was a region where an even larger % of the population were nobles. IIRC that was Szekely Land in Hungary.

    =================================

    That Knight first mentioned in 1374 was an owner of perhaps one or two villages and judex terrestris (a magistrate).

    Actually many nobles and aristocrats were also merchants at the same time, or ran other large businesses.

    However, in some regions there were feudal laws which deprived you of your noble status if you "got your hands dirty with capitalist activities".

    Generally in aristocratic circles income from landed estates was considered the "cleanest", "most noble" form of income.

    Moderator Action: Infraction for spam about Poland, both here and elsewhere. Just because it's not an RD thread doesn't free you to make irrelevant posts about Poland.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  3. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Well, aristocracy in up to recent (ie pre 20th century) times was tied to land-owning, for various reasons (likely most importantly the titles which came with military service/obligation as well). Obviously this would differ from state to state, eg the Byz Empire was not feudal but more of a byzantine web of families stabbing each other, and people could rise to power in different ways too, which is why there were so many dynasties and one-offs.

    But Oligarchy was historically borne out of trade, cause the Aristocracy was of a noble line, whereas the oligarchy were people without titles who came to make loads of money and so fought for power as well. The setting of the birth of such distinctions are the Greek politiae of old, where usually aristocracy was changed with oligarchy, and democracy. (tyranny, btw, had a very different meaning than now, and signifies etymologically just that someone usurped power, ie did not come to have it through lawful mean. So a benevolent tyranny was very much possible).
     
  4. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    Sure but for example Polish aristocracy at some point was involved in large-scale trade. They exported grain and other things.

    So they were landowners and merchants at the same time, during that period. And they had private armies, sometimes larger than state army.
     
  5. Thorgalaeg

    Thorgalaeg Deity

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    In a not very related note, all this remembers about the three "good" governs: monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy and the three "bad" ones: tyranny, oligarchy, and ochlocracy and as they are closely related and the good evolves usually into the bad. For instance aristocracy -------> oligarchy.
     
  6. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    ^Currently it seems that virtually all the west has (in essence) oligarchies, marketed as democracy. Maybe some countries do not (eg Switzerland or Norway).
     
  7. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    This guy (1715 - 1760) had 6,000 -10,000 soldiers (depending on period) in his private army, and he wasn't even the richest guy in his family:



    Had all those powerful magnates with private armies been patriotic instead of selfish, the Partitions of Poland would have never happened.

    But for them interests of their families were often more important than well-being of the country. That was during the moral decline of the 1700s.
     
  8. Thorgalaeg

    Thorgalaeg Deity

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    Surely the oligarchs themselves think of it as an aristocracy (govern of the best ones).
     
  9. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

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    So then is it turning out that Polish noblemen discovered America after purging Norway of Vikings? Is that what I am supposed to be getting from all of this?
     
  10. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    I don't know what exactly purged Norway of its Vikings.

    Most likely those were Vikings themselves (by emigrating or dying in overseas expeditions, they emptied Norway of themselves).

    Christianity also helped, being a less aggressive religion than Norse Paganism.

    ======================================

    Mortality rate and life expectancy of a Norwegian Viking had to be less favorable (for him) than of a Norwegian Non-Viking.

    But those were compensated by their Pagan belief that by dying in battle they could ensure for themselves a better place in paradise.
     
  11. Harv

    Harv Emperor

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    I usually use 30 years to a generation and not 20, so I get 20 generations instead of 30, and 1 million instead of 1 billion. Anybody out there have a better number?
     
  12. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Domen, I see you as a sort of a mad librarian, who has access to all sorts of graphs, maps, and other such things, sitting there looking to pounce on random things that are posted. Sometimes it's annoying, sometimes it's informative. Usually it's both. I think it would be a lot more effective if you worked on your timing and delivery.

    Yes.
     
  13. Civ'ed

    Civ'ed I ain't gotta explain a thing

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    Polish Vikings discovered Norway after Americans crossed the ice shelf from Cuba to Istanbul. I think.
     
  14. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    And Diogenes the cynic Romanos was looking for them with his lantern burning in the middle of the day.
     
  15. gay_Aleks

    gay_Aleks communism will win.

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    Stop making me shade, Alexa- Suleiman!
     
  16. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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  17. Agent327

    Agent327 Observer

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    What's mostly typical is that these supposed claimants (Chinese, Muslims, etc) never left any trace of their supposed discoveries. That and that the claims apparently only appear centuries after the supposed fact. Droll indeed.
     
  18. trader/warrior

    trader/warrior Deity

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    I think you are overestimating how easy that would be. The whole idea of the bering straight land bridge is that even ice shelves over land were so inhospitable that they couldn't cross it untill the land bridge was exposed by retreating ice, and that was a shorter distance than the proposed atlantic crossing. Add to that the extreme instability of ice over the sea, constantly breaking up into ice bergs, the whole mass of ice over the north pole would still be slowly spinning and large areas of open sea could open up very far north.
     
  19. Phrossack

    Phrossack Armored Fish and Armored Men

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    A chauvinist scumbag eagerly seizes upon a false interpretation of a document to "prove" that people who happened to be Muslim came across America a long time ago, which he believes entitles all people who call themselves Muslim today to a sense of pride in something that they didn't personally do and which never happened.

    Then Valka mentioned something about ancestors. Domen the race scientist responded by breaking out the calipers, measuring skulls, and drowning the thread in oceans of irrelevant pictures, graphs, hairsplitting over haplogroups, and obsessive mentions of Poland.
     
  20. gay_Aleks

    gay_Aleks communism will win.

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    In other words; this thread derailed so hard it went into another topic. You could say that in a manner of ways, it re-railed.

    On a wrong railroad line where the bridge has been blown up by anarchists, but hey.
     

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