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Arcane/Summoning Merge?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by orgonebox, Dec 26, 2008.

  1. orgonebox

    orgonebox Squidtastic

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    Um, you're basically making the summon weaker and giving the arcane a boost, or saying don't change arcane and reduce a summoning's existence by one turn. Summons already last a turn, and the AI will attack your summoned beastie before their turn ends, even though the summon will be dead.

    Another feature of merging arcane and summoning is that it will create a more diverse assortment of arcane leaders - cre/arc for Keelyn, or someone suggested agg/arc for Tebryn, or a monstrous ind/arc for Os Gabella. I used to love playing Garrim Gyr when he was fin/arc, but now he's just the least of all dwarves - not that I've ever seen the AI do right by GG, much less want to choose him for myself.

    I also really think that if it isn't too much trouble, the arcane path would benefit from some kind of xml tag that boosted research for arcane leaders - maybe ten to fifteen percent at most. I usually play games on emperor with raging barbs, huge maps, and aggressive AI, and it takes a while before I feel like I can turtle up and go the thirty-two turn wait for sorcery.

    The final thought I had on the topic involves creating a scenario that would allow a player to experiment with all these traits - kind of an amurite-hosted mage school tournament, where you can't build anything except adepts, everyone starts with three to four raw mana nodes, and all four mana-building techs plus sorcery. Representative civs could have their native mana. Far corners of the map would have critter-guarded artifacts that boost strength or spell ability relative to mana possessed. Anybody interested in helping to develop this?
     
  2. Yaotzin

    Yaotzin Warlord

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    A merged Arcane/summoning would be disgustingly powerful. Rebalancing all the leaders (Hi Faeryl!) with it would be a nightmare.
     
  3. reverend oats

    reverend oats King

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    Faeryl's already op anyway.
     
  4. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    What is the situation here anyway?

    Arcane is weak.
    Arcane is held by civs that are regarded as mostly weak.
    Arcane competes with Charismatic for improving mages.
    Arcane gives no economic benefits.

    Summoner is strong.
    Summoner is held by civs that are strong.
    Summoner is useless until midgame when it becomes a monster.


    I would really dislike the merging of the two traits. They function in different ways to do different things and merging would just make a mess.I like summoner as it is. Remember, Kael + co are not balancing traits vs. each other, they're balancing civs against each other. Any perceived problems with summoner come mostly from Keelyn and Gabby/Tebby. Balancing should be done there, rather than to the trait.

    So what about improving Arcane? My instinct is that the trait is weak and the civs that possess it could be helped by improving it. I think that regardless of anything else, Charismatic XP discount should not apply to arcane units. That will increase the uniqueness of Arcane and civs that have it.

    After that there are a variety of things that could be done.

    Can they be given an economic benefit? Double the bonuses from mana? So, 6% research boost from Mind and +2 health from Life? Alternatively, someone suggested a generic research boost, but it would be more flavoursome to discount only the magic line of techs for Arcane leaders.

    Magic users are fun to play with so giving Arcane civs limited early access to them might be nice. A trait-specific small National Wonder requiring 3 Elder Councils and must be built with a Great Sage that gives you 3 Adepts with 2-5 XP each?
     
  5. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    I like the merge idea. Summoning and Arcane are merged, why not merge the traits and finish it?
     
  6. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Because Arcane increases the strength of your magic units and Summoning allows you to building a new type of army based around summoning.

    Arcane gives an incremental improvement but Summoning gives a whole new playstyle. They're chalk and cheese.

    You might as well merge Creative and Philosophical. After all, they're both about the same thing, right? Smart people doing stuff that doesn't involve heavy lifting, yeah? Its not like they do completely different things like give infrastructure free fast expansion or unusual GP lightbulbing opening strategies.
     
  7. Imuratep

    Imuratep Cultist of the Old Ones

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    I also think summoner should be changed but in a way that the change means both a profit and a loss. I would reduce the summoned units' duration by one and all summoned units should start with the strong promotion (or a promotion with another name, but the same effect to make tower of elements/necromancy not completely useless). That way for some leaders the trait gets much better (sheaim --> adepts --> skeletons), while the only problematic one is weakened a bit.
     
  8. someone67

    someone67 Warlord

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    I totally agree.


    You normally get a level up if your XP reach current lvel*current level+1. Charasmatic changes that formula: (current level*current level+1)*0.75
    These formulas work for every unit as long as it can get promotions (or your unit reaches the max-XP-cap). So in order to deny arcane units the charasmatic XP discount you would have to deny them promotions (or change the game engine)

    That sounds great, but enchantment could be a bit imba that way.

    The research bonus should be there, however I don't think that limitating it to a specific line of techs would be a good idea.

    I like this idea most. But it shouldn't require a great sage. Well, it should defently be included.
     
  9. odalrick

    odalrick Emperor

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    If you have Elder Councils and a Great Sage, why not just pop knowledge of the Ether and build as many adepts you want?

    Would be better to just let them start with an adept.
     
  10. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    Arcane adepts already get faster XP, I think the trait is fine as it is. It used to be over powered when it gave an extra promotion every level up of the mage.
     
  11. zup

    zup Emperor

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    But how about the extra promotions are brought back? So Arcane has any chance of competing with Summoner?

    Even then I think Keelyn would handily beat Tebryn in summoning supremacy.
     
  12. orgonebox

    orgonebox Squidtastic

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    Eh, I give up. Given that this thread has bubbled near the top of the forum for a couple of days without the team weighing in says something like, "forget it."

    Honestly, we should just get in on the next debate, which will involve cutting magic entirely. Most don't get it or care for the system, and it'd probably make people happier to have specific spells that come from unique units. The amurites should probably be cut from the game, the sheaim will rely on mobius witches, keelyn will have puppetmasters, and the elves will be s.o.l. when it comes to cities with high defenses. Get back on your one-trick tree-stomping, you pointy-eared bastards.
     
  13. Isotope

    Isotope Warlord

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    Remember Fall Further. All the suggestions here can be made reality.
     
  14. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    It does feel like that. In previous versions, I used to covet my Archmages (magi?) and protect them like heroes. The tier 3 damage spells were a late game tool to victory. Now, if an archmage dies I just say "meh" and upgrade another mage. The instant promotion on upgrading allows me to get my choice of summoning spells, and I usually only need one.
     
  15. smusebaer

    smusebaer Warlord

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    Some Ideas for a arcane boost:
    Half upgrade cost for arcane units.
    Reduced cost for arcane tech.

    Ideas for a summoner nerf:
    All summonings are permanent (just one Fire Elemental for 1 Archmage, of course that would make more lev. 3 Summonings more interesting)
    Make summoner a unitupgrade (perhaps lev. 1+levl 2), availible for every one, free for summoner.

    My wish for the magic system:
    Return the summoners as mages with a summoning promotion. And give every summoning spelllevel a normal spell.
    At the moment all my archmages are summoners.
    And the summonings are nearly all the same.
     
  16. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    It would be somewhat appropriate to redesign the Tier 3 spells so that each one compliments the others. Then you avoid the issue of "Meh, I'll just up a mage" mentality, you get the ability to completely steamroll someone with a single Archmage, but you maintain the requirement that a LOT of time and effort is devoted (well, unless it is a Vampire Archie I suppose). It would make someone with a single T3 spell relatively useless, but someone with 5 of them near unstoppable, and someone with 10 or more completely untouchable.

    Though of course making them interact in such a manner that doesn't require specific combinations and continually makes them all more powerful would be quite tricky to devise.
     
  17. Skitters

    Skitters Prince

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    What if Arcane meant that there would be something like a 10% chance that new arcane units would have a "Gift of Oghma" promotion which would re-instate the additional promotion for each level?

    Or perhaps instead units could have a 10% chance of being granted a random free spell sphere when built (including currently uncontrolled spheres...?)
     
  18. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    An interesting way for Thessa to be brought up to the same level as the other Ljosalfar leaders would be to swap her Arcane trait for the Summoning trait. It would give her a very different playstyle to the other leaders, and would mean that she would no longer have a shared trait with Faeryl making the elf leaders all very much more differentiated.

    It would allow Thessa to have her own strategy along the mage line, similiar but not as strong as Keelyn, and more focussed on the midgame rather then the early game because they do not start with death mana unlike the Sheaim. It would also give her a much better incentive to delve into the dark arts, which is very fitting for her. (death, entropy and shadow summons)

    If tigers worked like normal summons, which I wish they would, it would also give her a brilliant synergy with the Fellowship priests too.
     
  19. Schmoe

    Schmoe Warlord

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    I love this idea. It is thematic, because it highlights the leader's mastery of arcane mana. It is effective, because the bonuses can actually become something meaningful rather than just flavor perks. It is creative, because nothing else really does this in the game.

    FFH team, please consider this option!
     
  20. zup

    zup Emperor

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    Do mind mana and spirit mana bonuses to research and gpp work?
     

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