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Are negative opinions of Civ6 allowed here?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Horizons, Dec 13, 2016.

  1. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    Oof, there was and is so much they could and still need to do. "Unstack" turns, make tile yields passive, make it more this that etc etc.
     
  2. ThisNameIsTooLo

    ThisNameIsTooLo Emotion Lord

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    I have no idea what this means. Don't players already take turns in sequence, one after the other?
     
  3. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    I do believe the CIV forums are still here. Maybe you've gotten lost lol

    There's been a couple recently in the 'DLC incoming' thread who don't seem to get that they're posting in the wrong thread. I get that there is a small tie - some see any work on DLC over patches as a betrayal; yet they aren't winning over any fans by pissing on our fun at speculating about the DLC. Yes, we know more patches are needed. We know that the AI and UI both need work. But one way of coping with an imperfect situation is to speculate over what is (hopefully) being released in the next few days.

    There are plenty of threads to comment on those issues without hijacking other threads which aren't specifically relevant to them.
     
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  4. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    No "one more turn"!? It wouldn't be Civ!

    Having been exposed to GhostSalsa's ideas in a thread on the movement in CiVI; I'm not sure if there would be much left of the game as we know it once he was done with it ;)
     
  5. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    it means that Civ turns would proceed like RPG, especially like Banner Saga, where your units alternate with the AI's. It negates focus fire which makes the AI a lot more dangerous, weeee
     
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  6. Sprenk

    Sprenk Prince

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    This thread is really weird to me because I have no idea what this "exit crash" is that some folks are talking about. Never have experienced it.

    I'm also learning new vocabulary from this thread. Praising Civ VI means I'm "astro-turfing," which means I'm a developer or play-tester? I wish. Could the causality be reversed, so praising the game gets me a playtester job? Dang, didn't think so. :)

    But seriously, of course there are going to be both positive and negative responses to the game at this point. Trying to label responses which you don't agree with as either "astro-turfing" or "trolling" seems a tad disingenuous.
     
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  7. RawlsRorty

    RawlsRorty Chieftain

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    Here are some Civ 3 1.29f patch notes I found on the civ fanatics forum. Searching for "crash" brings up 7 hits.
    All sufficiently complex software crashes. Especially when it must run on many different computers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016
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  8. RawlsRorty

    RawlsRorty Chieftain

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    Lemmings! I loved that game on the Amiga. Can't remember if it had any bugs though.
     
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  9. Lewi11

    Lewi11 Chieftain

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    Ok, I've already explained this 2 or 3 times but I'm not going to insult your intelligence like you have mine. So I'll just assume you didn't read my comments in whole. Astro-turfing and trolling was only one POSSIBILITY I raised. Read my comment again and you'll see I conceded another simple possibility.

    Another thing I've already explained more than twice is that I have NO PROBLEM with positive comments. I respect anyone's opinion if they respect mine and don't belittle me or try to silence debate. If, you disagree with my subjective opinion, then please share yours! I DO HAVE A PROBLEM when I share my SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS (which I admit are subjective) and then get told I am just wrong, stupid (repeatedly using a synonym like "disingenuous" doesn't make it any better) or have no memory.

    If you did actually understand my previous comments and you're just trying to stir me up, then you are in fact trolling. If you failed to understand, then please read my comments thoroughly next time before you try to analyse them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016
  10. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    @Lewi11:

    You once again inferred that me, or some other unnamed party, is trying to "silence debate". This is what I mean about proving my point.

    You're also proving my first point, in that positive opinions don't seem to be allowed. You're using the existence of positive reviews and comments that go against your own perception of the game as evidence that there is some kind of bias to the positive. Maybe that's because a majority of people enjoy the game? Who knows. Certainly, I don't know. But you're complaining about the existence of third-party review sites in a thread asking whether or not negative opinions are allowed on CFC. This makes no sense.

    Performance is an ever-present factor. UI and UX concerns, even beyond the scope that you take them to, are an ever-present factor (see: praise of Overwatch's UI compared to even regular contenders in the same scene). Core mechanics are an omnipresent factor. Many things are omnipresent, but the main hitters still play it safe by not diverging from the core formula that marketing and their other analysis-focused divisions will be decided are the core criteria for success.

    This is completely aside from development time and resources; Firaxis is certainly a heavy-hitter when it comes to 4x (and strategy games in general), but plenty of the examples we've used to this point have marketing budgets in advance of a lot of company's development budgets. I wouldn't pretend to know the specifics, but I know by casual conversation the size of say, Blizzard's graphics team that works on Overwatch vs. someone like Relic Entertainment (which are a well-known RTS studio in their own right). At which point we circle back to priorities.

    Civilisation violates the things you consider important in Civilisation (and others that agree with you, that goes without saying). But it doesn't violate what other people consider important. I like it, for example. I like Civilisation VI more than CiV, though I suspect a lot of the Civ IV crowd might be unsurprised by that. The sci-fi theme of Beyond Earth made it last longer in my anecdotal experience than CiV did as well. Like you said, it's all about that weighting. But you then make the mistake (imo) of defining what is "core", when "core" differs from person to person.

    Just like series like Mass Effect violate things some people prefer in an RTS, but succeeds at other expectations for other demographics. Plenty of people consider ME1 the best experience despite the factor it's UI and UX barely advanced from KotOR and quite honestly deserves to be burnt in a rather large flaming hole. The UI issues in that game I consider more egregious than the UI issues in any Civilisation game I've played, and it's not just because the genre itself has a low bar. It's because I consider the genre itself more difficult to get UI and UX right in. This is not to excuse criticisms of Civilisation VI in that regard, or invalidate comparisons to past games in the series. But as a baseline, the difficulty in getting a decent RPG menu right is to my mind simpler than managing the wealth of information in a 4x game that melds a lot of genre expectations into one. Even things like the "three click" design principle (whether or not it applies to video games UX, I think you should strive for it, and I think you'd agree because the aim is to reduce unnecessary clicks, to the ideal goal of three clicks to reach anywhere in the UI) are more difficult to manage because quite honestly there's more minutae to explain.

    But again I'm getting too hung-up on UI and UX. The core point was that while market acceptance of what is acceptable is certainly a factor, there are other equally as-important factors that should not be disregarded (even by comparison).
     
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  11. Gub

    Gub Chieftain

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    ^ indeed, its not about whether your comments are negative or positive (fanboys can be as annoying as negative nellies) it is about how you present them. For example in politics, people who provide constructive criticism, offering detailed explanation and possible solutions, encourage debate and stand out over the populist who are there for a good ol' circle jerk.
     
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  12. Lewi11

    Lewi11 Chieftain

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    I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH POSITIVE COMMENTS.
    I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH POSITIVE COMMENTS.
    I ONLY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH WHEN I SHARE MY SUBJECTIVE (debatable) OPINION AND PEOPLE TELL ME I'M WRONG, STUPID OR HAVE A SHORT MEMORY.
    If you post a POSITIVE SUBJECTIVE OPINION, I might reply with my NEGATIVE SUBJECTIVE OPINION, I will NOT TELL YOU THAT YOU'RE WRONG, STUPID OR HAVE A SHORT MEMORY.

    Seriously, how many times do I have to explain this? It's a very simple difference. If you haven't done this to me, then it's not you who I'm inferring. Sorry, I don't take a list of names, it happens too often. You did completely misconstrue my words though.

    I do think there's a big positive bias in the big gaming review websites. My actual point was that the all the negative comments in this forum (that someone said were abundant) at least balance out all the positive reviews to give a more accurate balanced picture, especially for prospective casual players. Before my head gets bitten off again, this also is my subjective opinion. And if you disagree, by all means please share your opinion, but remember that yours too is subjective and I am not stupid or wrong for sharing mine.
     
  13. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Well, given that I didn't say you're stupid or have a short memory, you should have no problem then. You were replying to me. If you did not mean me, then maybe you should've stopped replying to me.

    That said, it's entirely possible that the conclusions you draw are wrong, despite opinions being unable to be right or wrong in of themselves. If you can't handle being told you could be wrong, I completely fail to see how you expect developers to accept you calling them wrong, misguided, or whatever else you'd like to call them.

    And no, plenty of games get given poor scores. Reviews are a subjective medium anyhow; something the demographic described as "gamers" often fail to understand. Something that you don't like could be given an 8 / 10 by someone who ended up liking it. Reviews are not objective, and beyond "does this game run without crashing / this takes 30 minutes to boot up / why can't I click exit on this popup" can never really be objective in any sense that is measurable.
     
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  14. bladex

    bladex Emperor

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    whoa destroy your caps lock man. this game is definitely playable BUT only with the right mods. playing it vanilla is absolutely a no go.
     
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  15. Arkatakor

    Arkatakor King

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    This.
     
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  16. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

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    Well, first I learned to beat the game reliably on Deity, then I started learning how all the different game mechanics work and how to use them. That's completely backwards. Learning how to use GPs, faith, religion, envoys and tourism well should be small victories that add up to the accomplishment of winning on Deity. As it is I'm just exploring the game mechanics for the sake of doing it, in the hopes that the game will become something that will reward that kind of game play. This takes a lot of the satisfaction out of the game and it's a huge problem for me.
     
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  17. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    It's not a mistake to define it, unless you want to assert that one definition is the only correct one or "more correct" without basis. That's why I asked if I was right with what I put; I wasn't sure. If I slapped a "Civ 6" label on a copy of Rocket League last year, copyright aside almost every civ player would agree that it deviates from the "core" civ formula. Variant physics soccer with cars in an enclosed space is pretty different from making nations to stand the test of time or some such.

    So there are clearly at least some things widely accepted as core to the series, that make people choose to purchase civ over alternative options. Beyond "TBS genre with historical theme", I don't have a firm enough grasp of that to say it definitively, so I guessed...hopefully that I wasn't sure was clear at least.

    I do feel it is a little questionable to reduce strategy in a strategy title. That said, this outcome in civ 6 was not intentional; the developer stated he wanted the opposite (more viable choices, less alpha strats), so perhaps that is an area Civ 6 will grow considerably, even if it is a principle complaint for many right now.

    I agree it is more difficult in TBS than most genres, with a possible exception for RTS where while the complexity is less, the sheer speed requirement puts even more pressure on its efficiency. Maybe.

    However, knowing this, the lack of prioritization it gets is somewhat baffling. There IS more information, and along with that more *important* information the player needs to make use of the game's designed choices. I really do think if Firaxis put out a self-competing title with an excellent UI or a competitor arose that did a truly excellent job of it Civ 6 would struggle to keep pace, and also push that up the priority list considerably.

    It's not that I'm disregarding that it's harder in TBS per se', but rather that such is an inescapable reality of the genre. I don't usually talk about it because 1) previous TBS have done it regardless and 2) there's no way I know of to make information matter less without damaging the gameplay. That said, other games have other things that are harder (MP is much harder on real-time games because the margin for error in net code delays is smaller and the number of potential players is larger). Other games have heavier graphics/physics demands too, and yet they can and should be criticized if they don't meet standards of competition in their respective genres, regardless that it's harder for them than Civ.

    Would I say that Call of Duty does its physics better than civ 6 its UI, given the game's respective dependence on these aspects? Yes, that is a fair conclusion, because rarely if ever does the physics engine restrict or hinder gameplay (in contrast to say the first Dark Souls PC port, where areas of the game were borderline unplayable and From Soft got done dirty by a modder trashing the base game with a performance mod. That was no doubt a black eye for the PC port...). For a game so dependent on that working well, that was an awful mistake too.

    Anecdotally, it appears there is a pretty severe bias towards AAA titles in general wrt generous reviews. I would need to look at a large sampling of reviews and concrete reasons reviewers dock one product vs another to confirm the bias exists though.
     
  18. AlpsStranger

    AlpsStranger Jump jump on the tiger!

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    Civ5 had a very trouble launch and got much-deserved anger towards it.

    BUT

    When you just wanted to know something about Civ5 or share possible future changes it should undergo, etc., your thread would be drown in vitriol and rage. It basically made every forum for the game entirely unfit for purpose because it was a repetitive, endless cycle of rage and moaning. I think that's why people aren't always open to negative opinions near the release of a Civ title.
     
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  19. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    I appreciate you're frustrated...but hold back on the caps (yelling). It makes it look like anger is overriding you...
     
  20. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    I agree that there are too many positive reviews on gaming review websites. But that's not a Civ specific problem. I was recently searching a website called Co-optimus to find a 2 Player Couch Co-op Fantasy RPG that I could play with my daughter. The vast majority of the games that turned up in my search results had ratings in the 3.5 - 4.5 out of 5 range. I then looked each game up on Wikipedia to see what the Metacritic scores were in the Reception section. Very few of the games had a favorable score from the player base. This is a gaming industry-wide problem.

    But as far as the "negative comments in this forum [balancing] out all the positive reviews," there aren't that many positive reviews here on Civfanatics, so there isn't any balance on these forums. Most of the opinions here are either negative or ambivalent. Which tells me that most of the people here understand that the game isn't 100% perfect by any means, but it just bothers some people more than others. So people stating negative opinions of the game isn't as much of a problem as certain people repeatedly derailing numerous threads with the same negativity over and over again is. Most of us here are aware the game isn't a 5/5, but there's not much point in stating it repeatedly. NOTE: I'm not referring to you in particular, Lewi11. Now, if people want to write an email to 2k or Firaxis, or post their disappointment on their websites, that might gain a little more traction and be more likely to garner results than it would here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016
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