Are the Warrant Officer ranks obsolete?

[Cheezy the Wiz]

It seems to me that they have long outlived their original function, which was to recognize the special contributions of certain enlisted specialists without compromising the class barrier that made officers officers and crew crew. So is there any need for those special ranks now, or should they be absorbed by other ranks in either direction, enlisted or commissioned? Or is there a new purpose that has arisen for these ranks in limbo? Should they be expanded to include other jobs? Or are you happy with the status quo? Answer and explain!

Poll coming.

 

[nonconformist]

Absolutely not. Where would we be without or dear old RSM and CSMs?

Backbone of the army.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I said warrant officers, not all non-commissioned officers.

 

[Patroklos]

1.) The reason you attribute their existance to is imaginary.

2.) The real reason they exist is so that enlisted personel who have proven themselves exceptional experts after prolonged service can be moved up to junior officer level responsibility whithout having to at the same time worry about fullfilling all the officer career requirements which would be useless to them (usually because of age, but normally because they don't want to leave the JO sphere of responsibility). Warrant officers are always linked to their specialty, while officers are expected to learn how to do everything competantly. It also allows them to recieve pay more reflective of their experiance as opposed to ther rank as the lowest tier of officer.

3.) Similarly that is why OCS exists, but that is for people who want to move up to and beyond JO levels of responsibilty but but not restrict themselves to a specific field.

4.) Similarly that is why we have LDOs, so that they can limit themselves to a specific field but not limit themselves to a low tier of responsibility.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Wikipedia disagrees:

The warrant officer corps began in the 13th century in the nascent English Royal Navy. At that time, noblemen with military experience took command of the new Navy, adopting the military ranks of lieutenant and captain. These officers often had no knowledge of life on board a ship — let alone how to navigate such a vessel — and relied on the expertise of the ship's Master and other seamen who tended to the technical aspects of running the ship. As cannon came into use, the officers also required gunnery experts.

These sailors became indispensable to the running of the ship and were rewarded with an Admiralty warrant. The warrant was a special designation, designed to set them apart from other sailors, yet not violate the class system that was prevalent during the time.

Nevertheless, while the class distinctions embodied by the distinction between commission and warrant were important at Court and in society both at home and abroad, on board ship a person's status has always depended more on the practical importance of the job that he did rather than the formalities of commission or warrant. Admiralty commissions were therefore never accorded the unique status that the Queen's commission holds in the Army, and in the hierarchy of a Royal Navy ship important warrant officers such as the Master would outrank commissioned officers such as the marine Lieutenants.

 

[Patroklos]

These sailors became indispensable to the running of the ship and were rewarded with an Admiralty warrant. The warrant was a special designation, designed to set them apart from other sailors, yet not violate the class system that was prevalent during the time.

Thats nice, but this isn't the 13th century. The warrant officer rates exist right now for the reasons I stated, and nothing else. They have in fact gone in and out of use many times over their history, each time brought back for a variety of reasons.

That is also only relevant to the UK.

However in the United States, warrant officers are technical leaders and specialists. They may be technical experts with long service. Alternatively they may be direct entrants, notably for US Army helicopter pilots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_Officer

Being a warrant officer pretty much means you want senior but limited authority, and only want to do the one thing you are good at.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

I wonder how many people who haven't served in the armed forces are going to answer in the poll.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Thats nice, but this isn't the 13th century. The warrant officer rates exist right now for the reasons I stated, and nothing else. They have in fact gone in and out of use many times over their history, each time brought back for a variety of reasons.

That is also only relevant to the UK.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_Officer

Being a warrant officer pretty much means you want senior but limited authority, and only want to do the one thing you are good at.

This is why I asked. I said the class thing was the reason for their origin, and if that stigma is gone, then...well, now you see why I made this thread!

 

[Patroklos]

Some history, this was the end of warrant officer in the Royal Navy.

In 1949, the ranks of WO and CWO were changed to "Commissioned Officer" and "Senior Commissioned Officer", the latter ranking with but after the rank of Lieutenant, and they were admitted to the wardroom, the WOs messes closing down. Collectively these officers were known as "Branch Officers", being retitled "Special Duties" officers in 1956. In 1998, the Special Duties list was merged with the General list of officers in the Royal Navy, all officers now having the same opportunity to reach the highest commissioned ranks

Their existance now is new, thus the "original purpose" of them in the OP is not related at all to the current group of people known as warrant officers.

 

[Flying Pig]

They're definitly worth keeping around. Generally, their job nowadays is to yell 'get yer 'ead own, sir!' at the nearest suicidal second-lieutenant, or to scare the new recruits. If they were taken out, you would need a new NCO rank, and I think being the RSM and getting called sir is something for you to aspire to as a soldier. Considering the sort of prospects an officer can have, it's only fair to give the most important job in the regiment (regardless of what the brass say) to a trooper

 

[MobBoss]

It seems to me that they have long outlived their original function, which was to recognize the special contributions of certain enlisted specialists without compromising the class barrier that made officers officers and crew crew. So is there any need for those special ranks now, or should they be absorbed by other ranks in either direction, enlisted or commissioned? Or is there a new purpose that has arisen for these ranks in limbo? Should they be expanded to include other jobs? Or are you happy with the status quo? Answer and explain!

Poll coming.

Nothing wrong with the Warrant Officer system we have. Leave it as it is.

As usual, if its not broke, it probably doesnt need fixin.

 

[nonconformist]

I said warrant officers, not all non-commissioned officers.

RMS and CSMs are WO's.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Some history, this was the end of warrant officer in the Royal Navy.



Their existance now is new, thus the "original purpose" of them in the OP is not related at all to the current group of people known as warrant officers.

They're definitly worth keeping around. Generally, their job nowadays is to yell 'get yer 'ead own, sir!' at the nearest suicidal second-lieutenant, or to scare the new recruits. If they were taken out, you would need a new NCO rank, and I think being the RSM and getting called sir is something for you to aspire to as a soldier. Considering the sort of prospects an officer can have, it's only fair to give the most important job in the regiment (regardless of what the brass say) to a trooper

Nothing wrong with the Warrant Officer system we have. Leave it as it is.

As usual, if its not broke, it probably doesnt need fixin.

Thanks guys.

RMS and CSMs are WO's.

Yeah I figured this out after I responded, when I went looking for the reference for Pat about their origins. its just that Regimental and Command Sergeant Majors aren't warrant officers in the States. At least I don't think they are...

EDIT: Badgerman confirmed it. Which explains my confusion about the British way of doing it.

 

[Dachs]

RMS and CSMs are WO's.

In the United States, they're always NCOs.

 

[nonconformist]

Yeah I figured this out after I responded, when I went looking for the reference for Pat about their origins. its just that Regimental and Command Sergeant Majors aren't warrant officers in the States. At least I don't think they are...

We don't have "Command Sergeant Majors", whatever the hell they are.

 

[Patroklos]

Command Sergeant Major is the highest rank a normal enlisted Army member can achieve. There is technically one above that, Sergeant Major of the Army, but only one person holds that.

The Navy is a bit different. Our E-9 (a CSM is an Army E-9) is Master Chief, but there is a subspeciatly that Master Cheifs can get that qualifies them to act as the senior enlisted person at a command where they are known as Command Master Chief.

There is a CMC at every major command.

 

[emzie]

Poll options sucked. Selected all.

 

[Flying Pig]

We don't have "Command Sergeant Majors", whatever the hell they are.

To us, a CSM is a company sergeant major, which is an RSM for a company. An American CSM is equivalent to an RSM

 

[Lillefix]

You forgot to add the option "I have no idea what you are talking about, but I want to vote".

 

[MobBoss]

To us, a CSM is a company sergeant major, which is an RSM for a company. An American CSM is equivalent to an RSM

The sergeant in charge of a company is a 1SG (First Sergeant) and is an E-8. E-9 NCOs come in two flavors, Sergeant Major and Command Sergeant Major, and are typically command advisors at the Bn and Bde (or higher) levels and are the most senior of NCOs around.