Are you a Nice Guy who can't seem to get a date because you're too nice?

[Mise]

My hypothesis is that dominant males are more attractive to women on average, because it was that sort of dominant character trait that made them more attractive mates for millions of years, before the advent of civilization.

Where is the evidence? Of course, your narrative could be true, but the bible story of genesis also could be true. There is no evidence for that, either, and, to my knowledge, you don't take the story of genesis seriously. So why should we take your creation story seriously? You're simply asking us to take your narrative seriously as a hypothesis, without there being any reason to do so.

Am I totally crazy for wanting to analyze human behaviour the same way scientsits study animal behaviour? It just seems so logical

You're not crazy for wanting to, and, to my knowledge, nobody is criticising you for wanting to. The problem is exactly that you're not analysing human behaviour the way scientists study animal behaviour. You're making broad conjectures based on evidence that is anecdotal at best and pretending that this is how scientists operate. I know for a fact that you wouldn't accept this if the argument was "does God exist", which is why it's so frustrating to see you of all people do this now.

 

[Hygro]

All good points in your post, and yes, the subject is fairly complex. I mean, there are many biological, social, cultural, socioeconomic, etc. factors at play. It's obviously not as simple as "alpha males get women, beta males get crap"

I did not really think too hard about my definition of what an "Alpha male" really is, but I did not associate it with macho men exactly, but rather dominant males... not necessarily in terms of physique or even strength, but those who lead, know how to lead, or just end up dominating social groups in some way.. or have the capability of doing so.

My hypothesis is that dominant males are more attractive to women on average, because it was that sort of dominant character trait that made them more attractive mates for millions of years, before the advent of civilization. They were better able to get crap done, find food, and fend off other males who wanted to bag their woman, not to mention defense from other tribes and predators.

Obviously there is a lot more stuff going on here now that we have shiny watches and no predators around to kill our babies, but I would be surprised if the underlying dynamics have gone away completely. I think they are still there, at the base of it all. We've just piled a whole bunch of other stuff on top of it all, masking our true animal nature to a degree.

Gracias, and macho was probably the wrong word. I really do mean those who dominate a social situation. I don't think it's particularly necessary to display desired strength etc.

Your hypothesis is a reasonable one, and fairly common. Let's keep in that realm of reasoning. Lets remember that agriculture beat hunting. Or in other words, 1,000 poorly fed, weak, small, sickly agriculturalists could destroy their hunter gatherer rivals. 70 well fed, strong, large, nearly-Olympian level athleticism in some tribes, just couldn't face the numbers. Numerical superiority of the united.

Or we could abstract this some more. I play Civ4 sometimes with two of my siblings. If one of us pulls way ahead, the other two ally to defeat him. The two who ally always end up winning that war. Always. It doesn't matter if the guy pulling ahead could crush either one with ease. Numbers win. Cooperation wins. And not sticking out wins.

Now that's the interesting bit. Be Mr. Alpha and you pose a threat. You can take resources from others beyond mutually beneficial cooperation. By displaying your Alpha-ness, well I'm tired and need to sleep so I don't feel like spelling the rest out. I can answer questions but the gist is that you actually risk being worse at providing/protecting/etc because you are at odds with the group.

 

[Quackers]

I've just googled "alpha male". First link: alpha animals - no mention of humans. Second link, urban dictionary, third link mens health on "Signs you're not an alpha male". Plenty of other crap from magazines.

Can we just bury this useless term?

 

[Hygro]

More or less. I think it's a useful model for examining possible relevant variables in a situation, but it's a terrible model for categorizing anything hierarchal or applying value judgments.

 

[Neomega]

Am I totally crazy for wanting to analyze human behaviour the same way scientsits study animal behaviour? It just seems so logical

It's kind of logical, but most animals cannot influence other animals' cognitive functions through mass media and culture.

You never see a monkey insisting on a diamond ring before doing monkey business.

 

[TomYo689]

If this monkey experiment hasn't already been tried I'm sure it could be done with certain species

 

[classical_hero]

Am I totally crazy for wanting to analyze human behaviour the same way scientsits study animal behaviour? It just seems so logical

Yes you are. Human behaviour is no way linked to animal behaviour. In fact far to often animal behaviour is anthropomorphised because the viewer of the behaviour is human and thus we view things like a human would.

 

[Hygro]

Yes you are. Human behaviour is no way linked to animal behaviour. In fact far to often animal behaviour is anthropomorphised because the viewer of the behaviour is human and thus we view things like a human would.

Yeah, we definitely don't have a reptilian fight-or-flight response.

 

[caketastydelish]

@hobbs: No offense, but what you're saying is not necessarily true. I'm a guy, quite a straight one, and usually nice enough. I've never really had a girlfriend. I don't blame women for that, I don't hate women, not even in the least. I don't think any less of woman than I do of men (I think of them the same). So the stereotype that love shy men: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_shy are always going to be misyngostic is simply not true. Being intimidated by women (especially the ones you find attractive) and hating women simply do not mean the same thing.

I don't blame women for my lack of interaction with them in the least. I blame it on myself, yet at the same time I know this does not make me a bad person. I know there is stigma against guys that don't get girlfriends (just as there is stigma against women who have been with a lot of guys) but this type of stuff should just be ignored.

For one thing, I hardly get out of the house. How on earth could I blame women for my lack of female relationship? Granted if any guy in a similar position to me is blaming women he has no right to do so, but don't generalize all guys that can't get a girlfriend as misynogistic.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Yes you are. Human behaviour is no way linked to animal behaviour. In fact far to often animal behaviour is anthropomorphised because the viewer of the behaviour is human and thus we view things like a human would.

Cow pies. How many dog training books say you have to make the dog understand that YOU are the alpha of the pack? Pretty much all of them. Properly-trained dogs need an alpha. Cats need to understand that the human is the one in charge (even if only because cats have not yet learned to operate can openers).

Somebody once asked me why her sisters and niece were arguing so often. Personality issues aside, I could see it was a classic case of physically mature females competing for the top spot in the hierarchy. That's behavior I've observed in cats, and behavior I've observed in humans.

Humans are animals. We have a different way of communicating from most of them, our technology is more sophisticated, and so on. But we're still animals, and there are evolutionary holdovers that millions of years have still not done away with.

 

[TomYo689]

Cake you do have the internet. Always an option if you're willing to enter a manti teo style thing.

 

[caketastydelish]

What on earth is that?

 

[GenMarshall]

You can't get a girlfriend unless you work at it. You will be rejected. That's life, get used to it.

I do understand that the average age here is around late teens (which in my experience makes the emotional stakes of asking a girl out higher and therefore it's something much harder to do) and there is some other selection biases at work that make the average OTer less likely to land a girl as well.

Getting a date is not hard. It is also not a big deal.

I'd rather walk through a land mine field or swarmed by bees than approach a woman. Rejection is an all to unpleasant experience to go through. Hell, I was called ugly and been given the "ewww!" from girls growing up. I'm too afraid that those immature and rude coments would likely crop up if I attempt to approach a woman, furthering harming my already brused confidence. Then comes the other doubt in my mind tf she already has a boyfriend. All too much I've been drawn to women who are already taken, and it's frustrating as hell.

Given my current situation of being unemployed, I'm afraid that would be a deal breaker for women. Even though I have a goal set and the determination to get a stable employment. It seems the stereotype of an unemployed male to women is an unmotivated slob and a loser (well, what I've seen in the US). I've been putting getting back on the dating horse for years, but I've just gotten the urge to stop putting it off and just do it for my own well being and happiness.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Just out of curiosity... what would you say if a woman approached you and asked you out (ie. to go for a walk, coffee, or similar)? Would you say "Sure, I'd enjoy that," or would you hand her a resume and stress that you're unemployed and therefore not worth her time?

Here's an observation borne of personal experience: I always enjoyed the walks and casual times more than the formal occasions - I'm a woman who absolutely hates dressing up, unless it's for a science fiction convention or medieval feast.

Hint: Going for coffee is inexpensive. And walks and conversation are free.

 

[caketastydelish]

Just out of curiosity... what would you say if a woman approached you and asked you out (ie. to go for a walk, coffee, or similar)? Would you say "Sure, I'd enjoy that," or would you hand her a resume and stress that you're unemployed and therefore not worth her time?

Here's an observation borne of personal experience: I always enjoyed the walks and casual times more than the formal occasions - I'm a woman who absolutely hates dressing up, unless it's for a science fiction convention or medieval feast.

Hint: Going for coffee is inexpensive. And walks and conversation are free.

This is the problem. See, here, if this would ever happen, things would be a lot easier for shy people (of both genders).

Isolated people such as myself tend not to get approached, simply because society sees us an unapproachable. They think we only care about ourselves just because we don't talk much, when the opposite of often true.

That said, I'll never forget this experience from last semester:

Spoiler :

I was in the Cafeteria of my university, getting dinner. I was in the stir fry lane, where you give them vegtables and they put shrimp and/or chicken with them, and cook it together. As I was waiting in the line, this girl whispers to the girl beside her (they were beside me in the line) saying "he's so cute." I heard it, but didn't say anything. But I quickly looked around, and no other males were anywhere near us. Then she whispered to her friend again, saying "he's so tall." FYI I'm 6'2. Not tall enough to be a basketball player, but I was comfortably taller than her. Anyway, that was it. I just sat down and had my dinner, and they left. I'm about 95% sure she was talking about me... but oh well. The compliment still made me feel like a million bucks.

 

[Neomega]

This is the problem. See, here, if this would ever happen, things would be a lot easier for shy people (of both genders).

Isolated people such as myself tend not to get approached, simply because society sees us an unapproachable. They think we only care about ourselves just because we don't talk much, when the opposite of often true.

That said, I'll never forget this experience from last semester:

Spoiler :

I was in the Cafeteria of my university, getting dinner. I was in the stir fry lane, where you give them vegtables and they put shrimp and/or chicken with them, and cook it together. As I was waiting in the line, this girl whispers to the girl beside her (they were beside me in the line) saying "he's so cute." I heard it, but didn't say anything. But I quickly looked around, and no other males were anywhere near us. Then she whispered to her friend again, saying "he's so tall." FYI I'm 6'2. Not tall enough to be a basketball player, but I was comfortably taller than her. Anyway, that was it. I just sat down and had my dinner, and they left. I'm about 95% sure she was talking about me... but oh well. The compliment still made me feel like a million bucks.

If you are 6' 2", you have no reason to be afraid of women. Jesus dude.... ....you should have slicked your hair back, smiled and said, "yes, yes I am!" Even if they weren't talking about you, it would be funny enough to get a conversation started.

 

[Hygro]

Cow pies. How many dog training books say you have to make the dog understand that YOU are the alpha of the pack? Pretty much all of them. Properly-trained dogs need an alpha. Cats need to understand that the human is the one in charge (even if only because cats have not yet learned to operate can openers).

I don't disagree with the point of your post but I'd like to point out that both of these examples display how cats and dogs have concepts of alpha, not how human society does.

What on earth is that?

The football player who faked his girlfriend, and her death.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Whilst banging hotties, on the rare occasions it has happened has certainly had it's charms, I'd say learning how to and gradually becoming a "nice guy" has been even better. So I don't worry about the "bad guy gets the girl" dynamic too much.

 

[Hygro]

Whilst banging hotties, on the rare occasions it has happened has certainly had it's charms, I'd say learning how to and gradually becoming a "nice guy" has been even better. So I don't worry about the "bad guy gets the girl" dynamic too much.

My God. A-fracken-Men. This is the truth.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

My God. A-fracken-Men. This is the truth.

Thanks H dawg, I felt it needed to be said.

As usual, Silent Bob says it best (fast forward to the last 20 seconds)



Link to video.