Are you a Nice Guy who can't seem to get a date because you're too nice?

[asbestos]

http://www.anapsid.org/hormones.html

Great article by the Neuroscientist Robert Sapolsky about the correlation between Testosterone and aggression.

tl;dr
Testosterone doesn't actually cause aggression, but exaggerates it if the tendency to be aggressive already exists.

If you knew a great deal about the genetic makeup of a bunch of males, enough to understand how much testosterone they secreted into their bloodstream, you still couldn't predict levels of aggression among those individuals. Nevertheless, the subtraction and reinstatement data seem to indicate that, in a broad sort of way, testosterone causes aggressive behavior. But that turns out not to be true either, and the implications of this are lost on most people the first 30 times they hear about it. Those implications are important, however - so important that it's worth saying 31 times.

Round up some male monkeys. Put them in a group together and give them plenty of time to sort out where they stand with each other - grudges, affiliative friendships. Give them enough time to form a dominance hierarchy, the sort of linear ranking in which number 3, for example, can pass his day throwing around his weight with numbers 4 and 5, ripping off their monkey chow, forcing them to relinquish the best spots to sit in, but numbers 1 and 2 still expect and receive from him the most obsequious brownnosing.

Hierarchy in place, it's time to do your experiment. Take that third-ranking monkey and give him some testosterone. None of this within-the-normal-range stuff. Inject a ton of it, way higher than what you normally see in rhesus monkeys, give him enough testosterone to grow antlers and beard on every neuron in his brain. And, no surprise, when you check the behavioral data, he will probably be participating in more aggressive interactions than before.

So even though small fluctuations in the levels of the hormone don't seem to matter much, testosterone still causes aggression, right? Wrong. Check out number 3 more closely. Is he raining aggressive terror on everyone in the group, frothing with indiscriminate violence? Not at all. He's still judiciously kowtowing to numbers 1 and 2 but has become a total bastard to numbers 4 and 5. Testosterone isn't causing aggression, it's exaggerating the aggression that's already there.

Another example, just to show we're serious. There's a part of your brain that probably has a lot to do with aggression, a region called the amygdala. Sitting near it is the Grand Central Station of emotion-related activity, the hypothalmus. The amygdala communicates with the hypothalmus by way of a cable of neuronal connections called the stria terminalis. (No more jargon, I promise.) The amygdala influences aggression via that pathway, sending bursts of electrical excitation that ripple down the stria terminalis to the hypothalamus and put it in a pissy mood.

Once again, do your hormone intervention: flood the area with testosterone. You can inject the hormone into the bloodstream, where it eventually makes its way to the amygdala. You can surgically microinject the stuff directly into the area. In a few years, you may even be able to construct animals with the extra copies of the genes that direct testosterone synthesis, producing extra hormones that way. The key thing is what doesn't happen next. Does testosterone make waves of electrical excitation surge down the stria terminalis? Does it turn on that pathway? Not at all. If and only if the amygdala is already sending an excited volley down the stria terminalis, testosterone increases the rate of such activity by shortening the resting time between bouts. It's not turning on the pathway, it's increasing the volume of signaling if it is already turned on. It's not causing aggression, it's exaggerating the preexisting pattern of it, exaggerating the response to environmental triggers of aggression.

 

[Disgustipated]

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned, but has anyone discussed that men and women should not be friends? If you think about it, this is a recent phenomenon. 100 years ago, guys didn't have female friends. What's the purpose of that? You are setting yourself up for heartache by doing that (assuming you are attracted to the woman). Never have female friends. If you currently have one, put your arm around them and kiss them. It's gonna hurt if they reject you, but better than continuous pain of being in love with someone you cannot have. Nothing is worse than being in love with someone you cannot have. Yes I did have female friends in the past, and I feel I have learned my lesson on this. If a woman doesn't want you in that way, move on. There are plenty of other women.

And if you can't get dates, lower your standards.

 

[civver_764]

...or be friends with women, but don't put sexual expectations on them. I really don't think it's that hard.

 

[Disgustipated]

It is if they are attractive. Although I didn't mention I have had women friends in the past I didn't find attractive. And that was okay.

 

[Angst]

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned, but has anyone discussed that men and women should not be friends? If you think about it, this is a recent phenomenon. 100 years ago, guys didn't have female friends.

Male-female relationships 100 years ago were exceptionally complex culturally and are not to be desired as they're a sad product of a long patriarchy.

What's the purpose of that?

What's the purpose of having friends?

You are setting yourself up for heartache by doing that (assuming you are attracted to the woman). Never have female friends. If you currently have one, put your arm around them and kiss them. It's gonna hurt if they reject you, but better than continuous pain of being in love with someone you cannot have.

Uh what. I can be attracted to someone without falling in love.

Nothing is worse than being in love with someone you cannot have. Yes I did have female friends in the past, and I feel I have learned my lesson on this. If a woman doesn't want you in that way, move on. There are plenty of other women.

I'm bi. -_-

Do you understand the problem with that and what you're saying here?

And if you can't get dates, lower your standards.

"Standards" is a poor term to begin with. There are only different sorts of people. I don't like what most others consider "10s" for reasons of relational compatibility. Because I'm screwed in my head; culture-praised beauties are really, really boring in regards to what I want. I've tried it, really, and those people just don't connect with me like that, or me with them. Does it mean that I have lower standards?

That's not to say they are inherently horrible or worse than me. Or better. They should just find someone else than me.

EDIT: Sorry if I sounded rude in this post, it was not my intention.

 

[civver_764]

It is if they are attractive. Although I didn't mention I have had women friends in the past I didn't find attractive. And that was okay.

So you fall in love with any attractive female you talk to? I think that may be an issue specific to you(and others like you).

 

[Disgustipated]

Yes perhaps it is my issue. Am I the only one who falls in love with females I'm attracted to? I don't actually fall in love with them unless I get close enough to them. If they are just a work friend, I can avoid falling in love. But if I do things outside of work...

I'm amazed you guys can control when and with whom you fall in love. I'm having trouble believing that.

 

[Angst]

Nono, we can't control it per se. But it's just not something that happens often, falling in love. And if she's a friend, it does happen more rarely.

 

[Quackers]

Agree with the poster formerly known as lord joakim. You can't help who you fall for civ, maybe you have a female friend for 1 year and then you start getting romantic feelings for her. You cannot turn that type of emotion off. It is hard to turn off your feelings and ignore them; if you follow that advice you'll end up miserable.

 

[TomYo689]

Standards is a great term for what it's for.

I think his point is he's attracted to girls, which is a universal guy thing

 

[civver_764]

Yes perhaps it is my issue. Am I the only one who falls in love with females I'm attracted to? I don't actually fall in love with them unless I get close enough to them. If they are just a work friend, I can avoid falling in love. But if I do things outside of work...

I'm amazed you guys can control when and with whom you fall in love. I'm having trouble believing that.

Well I always liked this quote: "Love is wanting someone to be happy, attachment is wanting them to make you happy."

If you truly love the person then you should be happy that you get to spend time with them and brighten their day, regardless of if they want to have sex with you.

 

[TomYo689]

1 a person is also a physical thing 2 the point is the love is not reciprocated

 

[Disgustipated]

Well I always liked this quote: "Love is wanting someone to be happy, attachment is wanting them to make you happy."

If you truly love the person then you should be happy that you get to spend time with them and brighten their day, regardless of if they want to have sex with you.

I was reading an article on a news website from the Author of Love 2.0, and basically she was saying there is no such thing as unconditional love. No one does something completely altruistically.

People are only in relationships based on what the other person does for them, or how the other person makes them feel. No one gives completely of themselves with nothing in return.

You are hurting yourself if you give your time to someone you want to be with romantically, but they don't feel the same way. You are hurting your prospects of a real relationship with some other woman. Don't be a sap, and fulfill some woman's ego trip so she can feel good about herself. If she isn't putting out, go with someone who will. There's some lonely woman out there who wants romantic love with a man, but can't get it because nice guys are giving their love to women who don't return it.

 

[Mise]

http://www.anapsid.org/hormones.html

Great article by the Neuroscientist Robert Sapolsky about the correlation between Testosterone and aggression.

tl;dr
Testosterone doesn't actually cause aggression, but exaggerates it if the tendency to be aggressive already exists.

Thanks! Added to my "read on lunchbreak" list

EDIT: Ok, couldn't wait til tomorrow, reading it now, and already lol'ing! "This is a classic case of what is often called physics envy, a disease that causes behavioral biologists to fear their discipline lacks the rigor of physiology, physiologists to wish for the techniques of biochemists, biochemists to covet the clarity of answers revealed by molecular geneticists, all the way down until you get to the physicists who confer only with God." Sounds about right!

 

[civver_764]

I was reading an article on a news website from the Author of Love 2.0, and basically she was saying there is no such thing as unconditional love. No one does something completely altruistically.

People are only in relationships based on what the other person does for them, or how the other person makes them feel. No one gives completely of themselves with nothing in return.

You are hurting yourself if you give your time to someone you want to be with romantically, but they don't feel the same way. You are hurting your prospects of a real relationship with some other woman. Don't be a sap, and fulfill some woman's ego trip so she can feel good about herself. If she isn't putting out, go with someone who will. There's some lonely woman out there who wants romantic love with a man, but can't get it because nice guys are giving their love to women who don't return it.

No thanks man, I'm happy with my personal relationships the way they are.

 

[Hygro]

Yeah I'm not giving up my female friendships, they're my friends!

Yo, Disgustipated, your male-female views hinges on an emotional axis that is not the default. And as people who generally attract people on our wavelength, you will find you will attract, male and female, people into your life who feel similarly, and act similarly. This makes it all very self-affirming, but there are other realities out there.

You might really like this article http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-1/ . It gets better and better as it goes.

 

[Disgustipated]

All I'm saying is think about the poor lonely woman who can't get a man's love because nice guys have female "friends", and give their love to these "friends" without having a girlfriend. If you have a girlfriend and female friends, then more power to you. I'm saying don't settle for just having female friends. There are lots of lonely women out there.

edit:

You might really like this article http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-1/ . It gets better and better as it goes.

I didn't read part 2, but part 1 describes what I'm getting at. I should read part 2, because I am one of those people, and I have fallen into that trap in the past. Currently I'm not in that trap thankfully.

 

[Neomega]

Uh, be friends with all the girls you can! They have friends!

 

[Hygro]

All I'm saying is think about the poor lonely woman who can't get a man's love because nice guys have female "friends", and give their love to these "friends" without having a girlfriend. If you have a girlfriend and female friends, then more power to you. I'm saying don't settle for just having female friends. There are lots of lonely women out there.

edit:

I didn't read part 2, but part 1 describes what I'm getting at. I should read part 2, because I am one of those people, and I have fallen into that trap in the past. Currently I'm not in that trap thankfully.

I really like your top point. Part of the business is, though, exactly the problem with faux "nice guy"ism. Such guys have a term I love, "nice guy entitlement". Part of that entitlement is that they think they are entitled to really attractive women. Yes, attractive women are great blah whatever, but these guys who can't get any and are lamenting their friend zones and how dumb these women are for only liking jerks etc also think all the other girls are ugly, too ugly.

That is until one of those girls explicitly starts pursuing him, then she's beautiful. But she never will, because she's probably as shy as he is, AND has a cultural only-men-should-pursue disadvantage, AND as you said, disgustipated, the guy is emotionally unavailable.

Also, do read on in that article, it really does only get better. parts 2-4 are super solid, part 5 is a slam dunk knockout if you ever had any connection to pick up artistry. part 6 is whatever. But 2-5 is the biz-nasty.

Uh, be friends with all the girls you can! They have friends!

yup

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Sorry for the lack of context but it's late and I just happened to notice that girls as friends was on the agenda and this is more of a rave.

One of my absolute closest lifelong friends is a stunningly beautiful, blonde haired, six foot girl. We have been as thick as thieves since we were 16 and maybe for the first year of knowing her I "liked" here because, well, it seemed obligatory. I quickly grew out of it because I just stopped feeling that way. Our friendship was and is so strong that it would cheapen things to even contemplate being anything but best mates.

We've surfed together, got high together, I've taken her to get an abortion, her German shepherd fathered my shepherd's pups, I'm Godfather to her kids, we've never watched sport together as she hates it, her parents have at various times loved and hated me, she held my hand as my mum died. We've done so many of the things that I've done with my male friends.

It's just great to have a female friend. Not just because girls are awesome but because it's a great feeling to know you can have a totally platonic, truly close friendship with a female. It's been really valuable and I think has helped me respect women on the whole a great deal. I could and may well send her this post and I wouldn't think twice about it being weird.

If you ever get the chance to be straight up mates with a girl, I highly recommend it.