Are you a Nice Guy who can't seem to get a date because you're too nice?

[Disgustipated]

I did read part 2 of that article, but didn't see any link to part 3 or beyond.

One thing I wanted to mention since people mentioned further up in this thread that women don't ask men out (not in those exact words). Women sometimes do ask men out. Although as mentioned above, women may be just as shy as you, and unable to ask you out, but she make like you, and you just don't realize it. If you are emotionally unavailable, you'll never realize it.

I have had a couple girls ask me out. But nothing really happened on those dates. I wasn't feeling it. But I say to you guys who are afraid to ask a girl out, once you get past the first successful time you ask a girl out, and you have a good date, it gets a little easier. It's still difficult, but not as difficult as the first time. You can't always rely on women asking you out, in fact, you should never rely on that.

 

[Mise]

I did read part 2 of that article, but didn't see any link to part 3 or beyond.

You can just edit the link and change the "2" to a "3".

Or just click these:

http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-3/
http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-4/
http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-5/

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned, but has anyone discussed that men and women should not be friends? If you think about it, this is a recent phenomenon. 100 years ago, guys didn't have female friends. What's the purpose of that? You are setting yourself up for heartache by doing that (assuming you are attracted to the woman). Never have female friends. If you currently have one, put your arm around them and kiss them. It's gonna hurt if they reject you, but better than continuous pain of being in love with someone you cannot have. Nothing is worse than being in love with someone you cannot have. Yes I did have female friends in the past, and I feel I have learned my lesson on this. If a woman doesn't want you in that way, move on. There are plenty of other women.

And if you can't get dates, lower your standards.

Actually, while I freely admit this don't have female friends business has huge gaping holes in it, there is some tiny bit of wisdom in it as well. I would never recommend forgoing non-sexual female friendships(as a guy) for the most part, but I do think there are some wise self-restrictions one can operate under.

For the most part, I think once somebody is married they should be very careful about maintaining friendships with the desired gender that are not co-mutual friendships with their spouse. Time shared increases fondness, sexual desire is a natural result of fondness, and humans are weak. There is a reason so many affairs happen in the workplace. It's only wise to remove some temptation where it is possible to be removed.

 

[Hygro]

I did read part 2 of that article, but didn't see any link to part 3 or beyond.

One thing I wanted to mention since people mentioned further up in this thread that women don't ask men out (not in those exact words). Women sometimes do ask men out. Although as mentioned above, women may be just as shy as you, and unable to ask you out, but she make like you, and you just don't realize it. If you are emotionally unavailable, you'll never realize it.

I have had a couple girls ask me out. But nothing really happened on those dates. I wasn't feeling it. But I say to you guys who are afraid to ask a girl out, once you get past the first successful time you ask a girl out, and you have a good date, it gets a little easier. It's still difficult, but not as difficult as the first time. You can't always rely on women asking you out, in fact, you should never rely on that.

True dat. It's harder for women in general, but it still happens enough that while should not be relied on,

My philosophy as long as you do it like a good person, you are effectively giving the women the chance to have a relationship they might want if you don't ask them out. By asking them out, you give them that opportunity. Thinking this way definitely increases my courage.

The way I go for women these days, not gaming them and being my more neutral, real self, takes a lot more cahones so everything helps... and it's true

You can just edit the link and change the "2" to a "3".

Or just click these:

http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-3/
http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-4/
http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-5/

YEP!

Sorry for the lack of context but it's late and I just happened to notice that girls as friends was on the agenda and this is more of a rave.

One of my absolute closest lifelong friends is a stunningly beautiful, blonde haired, six foot girl. We have been as thick as thieves since we were 16 and maybe for the first year of knowing her I "liked" here because, well, it seemed obligatory. I quickly grew out of it because I just stopped feeling that way. Our friendship was and is so strong that it would cheapen things to even contemplate being anything but best mates.

We've surfed together, got high together, I've taken her to get an abortion, her German shepherd fathered my shepherd's pups, I'm Godfather to her kids, we've never watched sport together as she hates it, her parents have at various times loved and hated me, she held my hand as my mum died. We've done so many of the things that I've done with my male friends.

It's just great to have a female friend. Not just because girls are awesome but because it's a great feeling to know you can have a totally platonic, truly close friendship with a female. It's been really valuable and I think has helped me respect women on the whole a great deal. I could and may well send her this post and I wouldn't think twice about it being weird.

If you ever get the chance to be straight up mates with a girl, I highly recommend it.

I hear dat. That's some raw reality.

Two of my closer/closest friends are female. One thing that's helped us be honest to God friends is that they are attractive, perhaps ballpark where I am (if I flatter myself). However neither one is particularly my type, so the chemistry is very high on the oxytocin level but pretttty low on the get-down-tonight-make-a-little-love-tonight level.

The energy and closeness is very feminine to masculine, occasionally flirty, but it's not guy to gal. My life is much better for them.

Also, having honest to God female friends did up my game because it kept me more mindful that women are, you know, people. Sometimes society can steer men into forgetting that on some subconscious level. As in "people first, women second; not women first, people second"

 

[mrt144]

Fact: Most self described nice guys are not nice
Fact: Assertiveness and intention are more important than anything else when trying to procure a date

 

[Crezth]

I have learned so much from this thread. I hope to catalogue all of this valuable information for future use. Hopefully I use what I've learned here to regard women as little more than point-and-click adventure games, now that I know what makes them tick and how to interact with them. Thanks, internet!

 

[TomYo689]

I didn't learn anything from this thread

 

[Quackers]

I have learned so much from this thread. I hope to catalogue all of this valuable information for future use. Hopefully I use what I've learned here to regard women as little more than point-and-click adventure games, now that I know what makes them tick and how to interact with them. Thanks, internet!

Actually there has been some quite good discussion here - why do you put a downer on every thread you post in?

But it must be useless to the guy with the anime avatar - you must get all the ladies.

 

[Angst]

Crezth varies from inexplicably provocative to really nice, and it's random at times. When I chat with him in person, he's really nice (And he's a joy in the NESing forum.)

My biggest grudge with the snark is that I'm unsure of where he's aiming it. Who's he criticizing? Everyone?

Also, Quackers, I do agree - the hormone part was especially interesting.

I don't think I contributed with anything of proper substance myself though. Don't take this post as if that was the case.

 

[Crezth]

But it must be useless to the guy with the anime avatar - you must get all the ladies.

I admit it made me laugh.

The PUA talk is the only talk I have a real problem with. It's just not helpful to anyone. Important to keep in mind.

 

[Angst]

What's PUA?

 

[Quackers]

I had no idea what it meant, a quick google search and it refers to a "Pick up Artist".

 

[Angst]

Oh. So it was my posts that were problematic. Gotcha.

 

[Mise]

I learnt a fair bit about religious beliefs in this thread, but I've probably put too fine a point on it already

 

[Farm Boy]

I learnt a fair bit about religious beliefs in this thread, but I've probably put too fine a point on it already

Ok, I'm curious but not following. Could you sharpen that thing a bit more?

 

[Mise]

Oh I'm just making fun of my discussion with warpus earlier, alluding to the fact that he believes stuff without any evidence (just like religious people do!). I know from his posts on here that he doesn't like it when religious people do that.

 

[Farm Boy]

Oh I'm just making fun of my discussion with warpus earlier, alluding to the fact that he believes stuff without any evidence (just like religious people do!). I know from his posts on here that he doesn't like it when religious people do that.

That exchange did crack a smile here, hopefully warpus enjoyed it at least some as well.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I didn't learn anything from this thread

I noticed.

Also, having honest to God female friends did up my game because it kept me more mindful that women are, you know, people.

 

[warpus]

I may have misrepresented my point about agriculture, because I was using that as a dramatic example of a preexisting biological possibility, not a cause of one.

We've had had upward millions, and reasonable at least 80,000 years of evolution to realistically nullify the existence of human alpha males. My point of resources and sticking out applies even more to hunter gatherer tribes. Few can overpower the one, with ease. Selfish acquisition of resources are a danger to human tribes as a whole and are easily mitigated. It would then be reasonable that the women who preferred the men who fit into the mold would be more successful in continuing their line. We've had many thousands to millions of years of time to have potentially evolved that nature.

I don't really think 80,000 years is enough to get over some of our most basic instincts, especially ones related to mating. I mean, look at what sort of women men tend to be attracted to physically - we look for mating signaling devices - firm breasts and buttocks, hips well built for childbirth, etc. I think a lot of this stuff is there behind the scenes whether we want it or not. The actual level of impact thought? I have no idea, I just think it's gotta be there.

Yes it is a specific claim. You're saying that women in the EEA were attracted to "alpha males". You're saying that "alpha maleness" is hereditary. You're saying that alpha maleness increased the chances of offspring survival. You're saying that this persisted through 100,000 years of socialization. And you're saying that alpha maleness as we understand it today, in the context of this thread entails the same behavioural traits as it would have done back then. And you're saying all of this without even the faintest scrap of evidence!! This is nothing more than a "God did it" creation story.

Seriously? First of all it's a hypothesis, not requiring any evidence. It's pretty much me musing, saying: "Hey guys, shouldn't we be looking at the history of our species and our past mating rituals and behaviour in order to understand the way we behave today?"

I've read a bit about our ancestors in the 50,000-1,000,000 before today range. The men who seemed to be most successful at mating were the ones who were able to best deliver food, protect from enemies, and integrate the best with the community.

I see vague parallels between that and some of the dynamics we experience today in terms of our mating rituals and mating related behaviour. This is worthy of mention in this thread, IMO.

The only thing that's not specific is the evidence to support it. All you've said is monkeys do this and David Attenborough does that and we're animals and then somehow that means that any crazy evolutionary theory must be taken seriously.

No, I'm saying this: We are animals, maybe we can gain some insights into some of our behaviour if we actually try to study our behaviour as animal behaviour. This means looking into our past for context.

Warpus, you've already told us that alpha males are supposedly "better hunters" -- surely that would imply that it's natural selection that is at work, and not sexual selection!

They are complementary, I think. If you have physical and psychological traits that make you a better hunter AND give you a better chance of survival? Then natural selection and sexual selection should both be relevant, especially if it turns out that women see your "survival edge" as something to consider when they select a mate.

 

[Mise]

@warpus: In order for your hypothesis to be true, all of those things have to be true. There are looooooads of hidden assumptions in your hypothesis that you can't just handwave away by talking about monkeys and "alpha males".

I'm 100% behind any efforts to study our behaviour scientifically. The problem is, you're not studying it the way scientists study things, you're studying it the way religious people study things. Scientists use evidence and facts; charlatans use broad conjecture and flashy buzzwords.