Armed Zealots

[beetle]

Skip me this round, I will be offline for the next 72 hours or so.

 

[vadalaz]

Alright, let's see

@Nizef is up
raider980
beetle skips this round
Grendeldef
vadalaz

Current situation:

- going for war-assisted CV or just DomV if that doesn't work
- libraries finish in 3 turns to unlock NC (still need one in the capital)
- DoF with Babylon and at war with Mongolia with no chance of peace any time soon
- Genghis isn't doing anything which is kind of unfortunate because it'd be nice to liberate some CSs
- also at war with Ormus and actively recruiting their workers
- just finished Engineering, could get another trade route. To Maria perhaps?

Things to discuss:

- Education or Machinery first?
- Expand more after NC or not?

Our cities have really low population for universities so I don't know if Education's all that good for us here. I think I'd try to go Machinery and steal CS and Edu from William when we get a spy.

I think we can afford at least one more expo and there are some good tiles west of Kathmandu. That city would be eligible for Circus and Stoneworks too, so happiness should be very manageable.

 

[Grendeldef]

Nizef seems to be online even now but no signs of life here.

I'd also settle more cities in both presented cases and if it where my game I'd still burn Varna & re-settle since I can't get pass that location - that's insane to me whichever way I look at it Antioch is just weirdly unfortunate. Out of of the available options next city could be 4 tiles north of Adri by the river the 'last' seaside by mountain/Silver/Cow. Lack of luxes should be covered by Pagodas & Mosques. Optics is somewhat needed for the latter city but that's not an immediate need.

Unis are pointless with these cities so I'd go for XBows after CS. By this rate we'll also be DoWed by someone ,maybe even several, else than Genghis and forward settled even without a DoW. We steal our way back to sci game later.

Quebec seems a logical target for a TR as the q has been there for a while though one to Maria wouldn't be wasted either - I chose at the time Babs mainly for sci boost & sucking up Nebby. We might even get that Wine q done in time either from Nebby or bombing from Nicaea.

 

[Nizef]

Any special wishes for our enhancer beliefs?

EDIT: Sorry, I chose Choral Music and Itinerant Preacers on our behalf, so disregard this message.

 

[Nizef]

Why was Varna not settled at the coast?

Anyway, here we go:
t100 Start on Currency by popular demand. Clear a barb camp for Budapest.
t101 Fighting a barb Galley and that was enough to earn us the GG.
t103 Library done in capital, start on NC.
t104 Mongolia would agree to peace for the bargain price of 3 cities...
t105 Spy recruited. I sent him to Karakorum, I didn´t feel like spying on Babylon for possible negative modifiers.
t106 Silver connected, triggering several WLTKD. Renewed Copper/Gold trade with Portugal. Currency done, starting on Guilds.
t107 New policy: Theocracy and thus getting the Piety finisher. Enhanced our religion with Choral Music (we should build Temples in all cities for the Theocracy bonus) and Itinerant Preachers (we have Tithe after all). Oh no, It seems to be Keshik time after all! Genghis is approaching Nicaea.
t109 False alarm, Genghis backed off for now. Shared intrigue with Maria and she returned the favour by saying that Babylon is plotting against us.

 

[raider980]

Haha, we're doing as bad as I usually do in my own games. That's good though, maybe I can learn how to recover from a bad start.

I'll play tonight. So I'll get a settler going to found at the location(s) mentioned - are you all talking about one or two more cities up north?

Too bad we can't get those two Gold off the SW of Constantinople. Maria's about to grab one. Not a very good place for a city other than the Gold though.

Antioch is where it is because it seemed better than the flat riverside grass; it still gets the horses and bison and is mountainside for observatory; who needs gardens when you can't bulb scientists. If I'd been able to see that other fish I probably would have made it coastal but it was in the fog.

I don't think I like Abundant Resources. It spaces the resources out weirdly so there's not really good city locations.

 

[Grendeldef]

I'd start Settler(s) in Adri right away, Consta needs to grow. Two decent cities will fit there but one of them needs to be coastal and for that I can only see one decent spot.

The problem with Varna is not what it has but what it doesn't have. First it takes place of two good cities and secondly it still most misses most of the local food tiles or those are on the 3rd or we aren't runing them like the Cow which doesn't even have a pature. Missing the river wouldn't be much of a problem if there where food elsewhere. On the othe other hand we seem to be deliberately avoiding CS so even the riverside aren't helpful atm. Had it been on the Marsh which has 3 3f tiles on 1st ring the chance of growing would've been greater and equally importantly there would be room for a coastal city with 3 Fish & still some hammers to build stuff.
The same issue is with Antioch but it doesn't look as bad - it misses Fishes & river without getting much in exhange. Had it been coastal there could be another city on the hill by the river. Generally, don't settle a city without an undeveloped 3f tile without a very good reason - technically Adri is one but it had a solid reason and access to Consta's tiles.
A city by the other Gems would've had pelnty of food, more than enough hammers to build a Library which was only mandatory thing, easy to defend against random units and capable of fending off a proper assault with very few units and it would be The Target of Genghis' attack - endless xp, nice launch pad for stealing Workers from Genghis, pillaging TRs to the west, one unit between this & Consta could've controlled barbs in the huge empty huge area... I think I'm getting a semi while praising the location so I'd better stop here.

Settling on flatlands is something I generally avoid but it's fine if the city is otherwise defendable, it's not a frontline city and it has some hammers elsewhere from the get go.

I don't know for how long tech stealing is supposed to get here but Amsterdam has 21 pop & most likely a Uni. Will is teching towards Astro will Genghis will take bottom route.

We're also approaching time when the road to Antioch starts making sense. We can pay for it & we've/we can build units to use it.


So many positive things again but lines up well with Euro 2020 which is mostly #¤#/¤(?!" At least here we can shoot at the bad peoples

 

[raider980]

Here we go.

T110. Start building road to Antioch. Start settler in Andri. Dromon goes exploring since we have OB with Maria.

Interim. Renew Iron for gpt deals.

T111. Caravan to Goa; can't reach QC.

Interim. Maria has completed Machu Pichu.

T112. Purchase Mosque in Andri, Pagoda in Const.

Interim. Maria asks for DoF, I agree, maybe she can help us in our war with Genghis at some point.

T113-T114. Stuff happens.

T115. Something is wrong with Genghis, he's not attacking us even when our troops are right next to his.

T116. I spoke too soon, Genghis looks to be coming for Constantinople; moving troops to defend. Genghis plunders our Caravan. Capture Mongolian settler down near Leira. NC finished.

T117. Mosque in Antioch.

T118. Genghis is definitely coming for Constantinople. Swords, Pikes, Keshiks and a GG in sight. Dromon complete, attacks Mongolian Pike covering GG. Golden Age has dawned. Settler ready in Andri.

T119. Our great capital is under siege. Defending Constantinople. Attack closest Sword. Cataphract kills enemy CB.

Spoiler The Battle for Constantinople :

Aftermath.

• Machinery in 6 turns. We can steal Civil Service in 4 turns. Saving money to upgrade units although we need more money, we're kinda poor for having Tithe. (And I just realized one reason why, I forgot to renew the Gold trade to Nebby that expired, he'll surely pay 7gpt and we're under our cap.)
• Settler is poised to settle whichever coastal spot you were thinking of.
• Building Catap in Const, CB in Andri, Spear in Antioch.
• Workers pre-building road to Nicea. That worker east of Antioch mistakenly started mining but he was reprimanded since he was supposed to be building a road.
• Have fun fighting off Genghis!
• PS. What happened to our scouts? Did they die? We need someone exploring to the east.

 

[Grendeldef]

• Machinery in 6 turns. We can steal Civil Service in 4 turns.

Only one of these can happen since we still don't have D&P.

 

[Grendeldef]

T120

- switched teching to D&P
- Gold to Nebby 7gpt
- Iron to Maria 2/3gpt
- Horses to Will 2/3gpt
- gpt capped 30
- TR to Babylon
- Swordsman dead
- Horseman from Budapest
- Workers become road builders

T121

- Nebby is marching to Nicaea by Will
- Gems to Whales with Nebby
- Pike dead
- pillaging Ormus Cotton
- Pagoda in Nicaea

T122

- Settled Ohrid by the sea
- more pillaging


T123

- 2 Keshiks, Swordsman & CB killed

T124

- stole CS, Karakorum has Uni so the spy stays
- Swordsman, Pike killed, stopped counting
- renew OB with Maria to get the Dromon back, declined with Nebby

T125

- Pagoda in Antioch

T126

- road to Nicaea

T128

- Mosque in Ohrid
- open Patronage, could've been also been Honor or Aesthetics but those are more of a commitment while this is utility

Spoiler :

- I've been wondering where the main pack of Genghis is & may have found it now.
- Adri is preparing for WG & trying to grow - the pre-built units can be kicked out much faster if so wanted
- Nebby visited the border with 3 units but retreated so I didn't denounce though he didn't want DoF nor coop war with Genghis. Maria is also pretending to be pacifist.
- Genghis has been negative happiness most of the time which might be a reason for his lazy war effort
- I've been upgrading few Pikes but vaults aren't exactly full
- Antioch is getting the last Settler out while Adam is guarding the spot. I'd still put it riverside by the Iron.
- Nicaea is building The Eastern Navy
- at some point soon(ish) Aqueducts will have to be build
- next tech to steal will prolly be Education & one after that Astronomy or Banking from someone else or Gunpowder from Monty but I'm not very optimistic our beakers can cover that in time
- Varna still has SW in queue as forgot it after a Pike - might as well finish as it's prolly been there for a while
- Cargo Ship is for Colombo
- Caravan from Compass I'd use for feeding Adri

 

[vadalaz]

T130:
- Spotted a Mongolian caravan
- Truffles to Maria for 240g, gifted 250g to Kathmandu to stay allies
- PtP Colombo but it's a few turns too late

Interim: Great Mosque goes

T131:
- Mosque in Varna
- TR to Colombo
- Nebby sends us a Caravan. The guy has a lot of units

Interim: Babylon now ally of Kyzyl. Kyzyl wants a road

T132:
- Stole worker from Ormus

T133:
- Plundered Mongolian caravan
- Finished Theology, started Optics
- Spotted another Mongolian caravan in Portugal, will need to send a mobile unit there at some point
- Maria has Navigation

T134:
- Pagoda in Varna
- Finished Optics, started Compass
- Nebby sends us another caravan, I think he's actually friendly but his Longswords make me paranoid

Interim: Signed RA with Maria

T135:
- Plundered another Mongolian caravan

T136:
- Sistine Chapel goes

T137:
- Stole Education. Next steal in 21, which looks okay for Banking. Genghis plotting against Nebby, shared intrigue
- OB with Netherlands
- Pagoda in Adri

T138:
- Settled Nicomedia

T139:
- Finished Compass, started Astro
- Genghis has Muskets

Spoiler Screenshot :

@Nizef is up.

- There's a Turfan - Gao caravan we can pillage soon, and also a Karakorum - Lisbon one, so I'd send the Cataphract deep into Portuguese lands
- I chose Astronomy but Iron Working - Metal Casting would work too. We'll need to time Chivalry with the next tech steal to get Banking
- Genghis's attack has failed but he still wants a city in the peace deal

 

[Grendeldef]

I'm glad to notice that we've DoF with Maria - would've been even better had I noticed it in time. I think I said something about these sort of things in the Harun game and I need to make myself a checklist for the starting turn of my stint.

 

[Nizef]

My undertakings:

t140 Switched research to IW. Killed 1 mongolian unit.
t141 Nebu proposes a DoF and I accept. Killed 3 mongolian units.
t143 Killed a Khan + 1 unit. IW ready, started on Metal Casting. Stole worker from Ormus.
t144 Plundered TR. University in Constantinople ready.
t145 Purchased Mosque in Nicomedia. We have both faith buildings in all cities now.
t146 Metal Casting done, start on Chivalry. Upgraded a couple of CBs to XBs and one Dromon to Galleass.
t147 SP: Took Aesthetics opener. Maria built GlobeT in Coimbra! Road to Kyzyl done. Mostly shadow boxing with Genghis.
t149 Met Kuala Lumpur. Maria settled Bissau annoyingly close to our capital.

Other things: a GPr spawned on t150. The worker 2 tiles from Budapest is supposed to start on a road to fulfil the quest. One more turn until Chivalry.

 

[beetle]

I settled Varna where I did because I wasn’t willing to pass on any of the 3-ring resources, don’t find the northern land to be good enough for two cities, and we already had a coastal city. Why are we still building new cities?

 

[raider980]

I assume we're still building cities because we have Sacred Sites. I wish we'd have built one SW of Constantinople to get those two Gold and prevent Maria from doing it. I wonder if we should found a city near that central lake? Like right on that gold. Maria is spamming cities, even in the worthless tundra down south. But I guess she won't build one near that lake since the tiles are mostly 3 away from a city; except the Gold itself but the AI doesn't settle on Luxes does it?

Questions/thoughts on my upcoming turns.

• We have XB and Pikes. Is it time to take the war to Mongolia? He's got a couple nice cities but probably has Muskets. Also then we'd be sandwiched between Maria and Nebby.
  • If we were at war with Maria I'd say yes. She's probably got some nice wonders. And she's coastal.
  • Or do we just hold the line against Genghis and wait for Artillery and then decide who to attack?
• Any must do things in the next 10 turns?
• Edit. Anyone have strong feelings on which cities to convert with the GPr before I decide and do the wrong ones? Maria has a religion. William has a pantheon but won't get a religion. Better to block Maria in the west or spread to the east. Too bad can't go to Mongolia to block Maria.

 

[Grendeldef]

Why are we still building new cities?

Mainly because the current cities are crap. One can work with lots of crap cities but very few crap cities is tricky. Other reasons include blocking others from settling, spreading religion, controlling barb spawns, raising unit cap, minor faith dump and the general more hammers, money, faith,culture & land. That sort of things.
To fight a war one needs units. If the units are superior few(er) will do - we aren't anywhere near that position nor likely to get there soon so we need mass and our first five aren't capable of mass producing anything. Also, we aren't gonna go to the other continent with XBows - we need a navy even in case where we can capture a portion of it. Inland cities are notoriously bad at producing ships.

While the Consentient's Art of War works with only 3(4) cities on Pangaea starting with Archers or CBs even it will not work with XBows T150 being an era behind with self-set rules handicapping oneself. We need more. The last game worked with only three cities because Harun is OP and CA beyond OP - we are in nowhere close to that now.

Had Varna been settled on the Marsh nothing would've been lost - just the opposite. It would've grown with 3x3f tiles & the Marble. Gold, Iron & Horses on 2nd ring leaving room for a coastal city after/around time of Optics using the developed Cow as first tile while getting Lighthouse. 3x Fish, Wheat and more Gold. Only would've been between a Hill & Tundra Stone. This would also have blocked barb etc passage from north to capital and move the possible barbs camps in very few tiles on Kathmandu's doorsteps. One should never need to defend capital with land units hence (partly) the suggested city by the Gems in the south.

---

Start killing heretics in Babylonia. It will also convert Mongolian cities eventually. Will can wait a while for pagan burning as Maria unlikely is spreading her false message there. There's always the chance that peeps from the other continent will start there but I'd rather secure the neighbourhood first.

Going actively for Genghis' sounds unjustifiably optimistic but taking pot shots & pillaging TRs is always welcomed - we could use the xp. The best option would be allying Kyzyl and/or getting Maria/Nebby to coop but that's not likely. Luring his troops is tricky and I'm reluctant to sacrifice units. Perhaps a GG bomb from Nicaea would trigger Genghis and offer easy targets.

Genghis has also bombed Kyzyl Horses which should be pillaged. Some action might spwan there.

 

[raider980]

Oh yeah, killed a lot of Keshik.

T150. Start Road to Budapest. Prophet heads south to spread the word of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Start killing heretics in Babylonia.

Oh good, that's what I did. GPr is poised to convert Sidon and then head west for the last two spreads to the Babylonian cities of Akkad and Babylon itself.

Interim. Trade Gold for Wine with Nebby. Renew Iron and Horse trades. Nebby completes Forbidden Palace.

T151. We connected Wind for QC, we're friends. Budapest has Science quest. Discover Chivalry, start Astronomy. OB with Nebby to pass through his territory.

T152. Genghis is coming for Constantinople again with a large force marching up the west coast near Goa. Varna builds Aqueduct, starts Workshop.

T153. Killing Keshiks.

T154. Budapest gifts us a Knight.

T155. GG spawns. Road to Budapest complete. Adri finishes WS, starts Uni. Killing more Keshiks.

Interim. An unknown civilization has entered the Industrial Era.

T156. Killin' and Chillin'.

Interim. Meet Isabella, Askia, Gustav, Pocotello, Harold; quite an eclectic bunch. World Congress founded, Spain has discovered everyone. Maria has Gats.

T157. Trade Gold for Salt with Gustav; Silver for 7gpt with Isabella. Cargo Ship from Nicea to Rotterdam. Spot the first Mongolian Musket near Goa.

Interim.

• Isabella asks us to go to war against Pocatello. Gustav asks us to go to war against Harold. I gently decline both offers.
• Harold enters Industrial Era.
• Spain discovered for Sidon.

T158. We discover Astronomy and enter the Renaissance. We steal Banking, 22 turns to next steal. Heading to Gunpowder.

Interim. William offers DoF, I accept. What?, another prophet, we need something to spend this faith on. Heading him to The Netherlands. Isabella DoW Pocatello.

T159. I think we chased Genghis off.

Interim. Sweden denounces Denmark.

Happenings.

• Killed a lot of troops. Genghis couldn't get past our forces at the Battle of Goa. I wonder what Maria thinks. He may have lost enough troops that he has backed off or perhaps that's a ploy.
• Met the rest of the world thanks to Isabella. We have DoFs with William, Nebby and Maria but none of them will join our fight against Genghis. And he still wants like all our luxes and resources for peace.
• We are an entire era behind the tech leaders.
• Isabella and Gustav don't like Pocatello and Harold it seems.
• Three of our cites desire Dyes but I don't see any in the world at all.

 

[vadalaz]

I think we really need a few waves of RAs with our friends here, and I'd move the spy somewhere else to steal a higher-tier tech. Passive pressure seems to be enough to convert Babylon. Denouncing Denmark would probably get us a quick DoF with Sweden, which would lead to a DoF with Spain as well. Helping Budapest kill Ormus would give us Cotton with no warmonger penalty.

 

[beetle]

I think we really need a few waves of RAs with our friends here, and I'd move the spy somewhere else to steal a higher-tier tech. Passive pressure seems to be enough to convert Babylon. Denouncing Denmark would probably get us a quick DoF with Sweden, which would lead to a DoF with Spain as well. Helping Budapest kill Ormus would give us Cotton with no warmonger penalty.

I like all these plans. I had assumed Varna was our last city, else I would have settled differently. I still don’t see the wisdom in a bunch of weak cities (especially sans Liberty) but I have learned from the other games, so I will just shut-up-and-play.

 

[Grendeldef]

I will just shut-up-and-play.

This is something you definitely shouldn't do

What we need is free, wide range discussion what we should do. Leftfield suggestions are welcomed and conventional ones should be questioned. I might've played 'wrongly' all my life without knowing it as I may not have to have justified my decisions - now I do but that requires someone questioning them. Moreover, every game tends to evolve in directions that are less than fortunate so ad hoc solutions are always needed.

I'm all for RAs we can afford - tech race isn't our forte atm.