[R&F] Article Discussion: Cree Nation Headman says he disapproves of Poundmaker's depiction in RnF

[DJ_Tanner]

Haven't seen anything on this here either... but honestly, that's true since the beginning of it all... If it wasn't from this forum, I wouldn't even be aware of this controversy

I don't expect there to be anymore news to it at all. There really is no incentive for 2K to address it. Which is why I mentioned that I felt the way the Headman approached this was very bad (again to clarify, I do not suggest that they have to be OK with the direction and actions that Firaxis took, simply their approach to addressing these issues was very poor). The Cree people simply do not move the needle in the media, they still can't get 5,000 anonymous signatures for their petition even after the government itself came out on their side. 2K, on the other hand, can move the needle. So to address it now would shine a light on something negative that most have totally forgotten about (Hell, here where this would be extremely relevant it fell off the 1st page, so if it can't hold attention here it isn't holding it anywhere). It really makes the most sense to continue to ignore as the majority of the game fans, the only ones that matter in 2K's eyes, will continue to move away from the topic.

And if it tries to crop up again, they still have their ace in the hole, whatever civ they are holding until last be it the Ottomans, Inca, or other fan fav whose reveal will drown out any other press they may come across.

 

[UWHabs]

I don't expect there to be anymore news to it at all. There really is no incentive for 2K to address it. Which is why I mentioned that I felt the way the Headman approached this was very bad (again to clarify, I do not suggest that they have to be OK with the direction and actions that Firaxis took, simply their approach to addressing these issues was very poor). The Cree people simply do not move the needle in the media, they still can't get 5,000 anonymous signatures for their petition even after the government itself came out on their side. 2K, on the other hand, can move the needle. So to address it now would shine a light on something negative that most have totally forgotten about (Hell, here where this would be extremely relevant it fell off the 1st page, so if it can't hold attention here it isn't holding it anywhere). It really makes the most sense to continue to ignore as the majority of the game fans, the only ones that matter in 2K's eyes, will continue to move away from the topic.

And if it tries to crop up again, they still have their ace in the hole, whatever civ they are holding until last be it the Ottomans, Inca, or other fan fav whose reveal will drown out any other press they may come across.

It's your classic "news story for a few days", before it gets eaten up by another story later on. The only news I've heard about it are the various articles posted in this thread.

 

[Guatenadian]

No news recently, I assume negotiations between Firaxis and the Cree are still-ongoing and both groups probably prefer to do that behind closed doors. I keep an almost constant watch on Indigenous news in Canada so I will update if anything comes up and how the exoneration of Poundmaker is going if that news comes up as well.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Pîhtokahanapiwiyin will have his name restored

JAN 18, 2018 — Thank you to everyone who has signed and supported this important petition. We have received word from the Canadian government that a complete exoneration for Chief Poundmaker is going to move ahead, which is overwhelmingly positive and long-awaited news.

Here is the statement issued from the Government when approached by CBC Radio's The Current about this endeavour (January 9th):

"The Government of Canada is now in a position to move forward with Poundmaker Cree Nation to develop a joint statement of exoneration for a Chief Poundmaker. The process should commence shortly. We look forward to working with Chief Antoine and the Poundmaker Cree Nation toward this goal."

Please know that your support and action helped contribute to this happening. And for that we cannot thank you enough.

Recent Globe Article (January 17th):
---------------------------------------------
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opi...as-his-name-restored-at-last/article37650239/

 

[Thormodr]

Good news! Glad to hear that a historic wrong is being righted.

 

[God of Kings]

The Civ community played a great part in this historic moment in our country's history.

May Sid Meier and his legacy stand the test of time.

Same with Poundmaker.

 

[God of Kings]

Canadian comedian and news satirist Rick Mercer meets with Lakota Tootoosis of the Poundmaker Cree Nation:

Jump to the 4:23 mark

Lakota Tootoosis is the grandson of the late actor Gordon Tootoosis. Lakota might probably be related to one of the Poundmaker Cree singers who worked with Geoff Knorr.

Rick Mercer should meet with Ed Beach and Sid Meier next. I would not be surprised if Rick Mercer were to mention Civilization VI in his show.

 

[blackbutterfly]

Well, prompted by Cree headman Tootoosis' call to rethink Civ, I produced a map/scenario Colonisation of The New World, originally inspired by the Civ V scenario "Conquest of The New World". (Here's the mini map) →

It replaces Domination victory with 3 new victory types:

1. Monuments - Build 15 National Parks.
2. Environmental - Have 500 unimproved rainforest, forest & marsh tiles in your lands.
3. Archaeological - Excavate 30 artefacts.

Note that this is still in alpha stage but is still very playable. (Score victory is enabled).

 

[blackbutterfly]

New article → https://venturebeat.com/2018/02/02/...campaign=Feed:+venturebeat/SZYF+(VentureBeat)

 

[liv]

More a pre-review of the game than about the Cree although it is using that story as a starting point
"Is civ about expansion or about something else" seems to be the point

Last point is:
"So the questions that face Rise and Fall are about the design of Civilization as a whole. Can Civ, with its current mechanics and constraints, be refocused into a fun systems-focused sandbox more than a race to the endgame? Or will it, like the Cree complaint of not wanting to be part of a game that rewards land-grabbing expansionism, be something that’s simply impossible to do?"

 

[CivLuvah]

"Is civ about expansion or about something else" seems to be the point

I have gripes about the article but I don't know what exactly. At one point the author says that the problem is that Civ6 has no endgame and in another point he says Rise and Fall can change that, but at the same time he has doubts about it? I'm confused. I'm guessing he's trying to compare how R&F wpuld change the game? I'm also guessing he hasn't been given a preview build of the game. I find the structure messy.

Personally I feel Civ6 DOES have an endgame. It's just that It's more flexible. In my recent game as Indonesia I was aiming for a religious victory, but then it became so hard converting 12 civs that when there was a window of opportunity to switch victory goals (cultural for this one) I grabbed it. It's all very flexible so it's not like you don't have things leading to an end goal so much as you have opportunities to take different end goals per game. To have a point of comparison, when I played EU4 it felt more like a sandbox than Civ6. But of course that was before 5 DLCs

EDIT: Just had a thought. The author mentioned Civilization as a very talked about game when Civ5 came in. Now it's Paradox games that are taking that "mainstream" attention. I just realized how Civ4 didn't feel "mainstream" because not a lot of my peers talked about it. When Civ5 came in all of a sudden it felt like everyone was playing Civ5 while I didn't even bother.

 

[kb27787]

... or many other first world countries

Amen... In asia or the like that headman would probably just be referred to the opening statement you get when the game first comes up (this game is in no way, blah blah blah) and that would be the end of it. Any judge I know on our side of the world would toss the suit out... Only in america where I hear judges award huge sums for some very ridiculous allegations. The rest of the world thinks those judges are crazy.

 

[blackbutterfly]

"So the questions that face Rise and Fall are about the design of Civilization as a whole. Can Civ, with its current mechanics and constraints, be refocused into a fun systems-focused sandbox more than a race to the endgame? Or will it, like the Cree complaint of not wanting to be part of a game that rewards land-grabbing expansionism, be something that’s simply impossible to do?"

He seems to be interpreting Cree headman Tootoosis (who probably has never played Civ or a 4X strategy game) into something we can make sense of.

IMO the author is suggesting an Outback Tycoon scenario style "sandbox" game. In some respects that's exactly what i've created in my scenario Colonization of The New World -> https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1278145076 (alpha)

RN only an Outback Tycoon style score victory is enabled. You get special VPs for each natural (unimproved rainforest, forest & marsh) tile in your empire, 50VP for each national park and 100VP for each archaeology excavated.

TBH I'm not a huge fan of Outback Tycoon, and in this scenario there are no restrictions on war, so you can declare war and even eliminate civs but there's really little or no advantage to doing that. (In fact keeping a civ around to ambush their settlers can be a much better strategy)

The goal if you like is to protect the environment (from plunder). So you war for that.

 

[Disgustipated]

So it's kind of funny that we civ fanatics blew this all out of proportion, though the media started it by hyping things up as they always do. Some of us were worried we wouldn't get the Cree. I didn't think there was any chance we wouldn't get them where I live, but I thought Canada could have problems depending on their legal system. Fact is they didn't have a legal leg to stand on, and there was never anything to worry about. I do hope they aren't too upset at how things turned out, but it may be they just raised the issue to raise awareness of their other issues of Poundmaker, and that's fine by me. I can't blame them for that. I hope it all works out for them.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

So it's kind of funny that we civ fanatics blew this all out of proportion, though the media started it by hyping things up as they always do. Some of us were worried we wouldn't get the Cree. I didn't think there was any chance we wouldn't get them where I live, but I thought Canada could have problems depending on their legal system. Fact is they didn't have a legal leg to stand on, and there was never anything to worry about. I do hope they aren't too upset at how things turned out, but it may be they just raised the issue to raise awareness of their other issues of Poundmaker, and that's fine by me. I can't blame them for that. I hope it all works out for them.

It's helpful to remember the Cree have an (IRL) agenda. They want to raise awareness of their people, their history, and their current struggles. Launching a media campaign against Firaxis furthered that agenda. Keeping Firaxis from using Poundmaker actually defeats that goal, so it wasn't really what they were hoping for. They want to see more substantial representation, not less.

 

[halfhalfharp]

I never heard Firaxis need to consult the American president when they were making the American civ... nor the Chinese, nor the French nor the others...

I guess it is more likely to be oversensitivity, due to some political reasons, or trying to use this as media to rise attentions, either of which are not appropriate to be applied to computer games.

 

[blackbutterfly]

A little unrelated but a Cree of Poundmaker Nation has recently been made a Federal Judge in Canada → https://twitter.com/IBA_Canada/status/958148229295628288
So it's not like Tootoosis doesn't have anyone to consult on their indigenous rights w.r.t. Poundmaker. Just FYI.

 

[liv]

A much more important issue {a trial involving the death of a young Cree man} is now going on in Treaty 6 land (Where Poundmaker's reserve is) so the rather small matter of representation in some video game is not on anyone's mind right now.

 

[Morningcalm]

I do wonder what happened as a result of the Firaxis meeting with the Cree Nation, if anything. Did they exchange tobacco? Did Firaxis have to explain how Civ worked? Did they play the new Civilization: New Dawn board game? Was Geoff Knorr present to speak about his joys making the Cree music with the Poundmaker Singers?

 

[miaasma]

more than anything, i think even getting any input at all from the real life cree nation is a good effort, even if the response isn't necessarily what fans of the genre want to hear

it's probably inevitable that there would be a disparity in understanding with regards to how civ works as a game; a competitive strategy game in which players use real life civilizations as muses, rather than historically accurate representations of said civilizations

that's not a bad thing, and the type of contact this game helped initiate is a good one, so i'm glad firaxis did this