JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
What about my points Sidhe?
Article: Why Income Inequality Matters
- Thread starter Lotus49
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I think it's hard for someone who doesn't live in the US to understand it. It's an interesting separate topic that could stand on its own.
I can give a lot of personal experience regarding the African American community and where things have gone amiss versus other minority groups.
I wasn't aware they were directed at me? I'm still waiting for someone to explain all the points made in the Economist on the last thread which appear to fly in the face of the idea that social mobility is high and that the poor are socially mobile, since it tends to say that they are getting less socially mobile and pooorer, whilst the opposite is happening to the rich. I agree with your support of education, I think we already went through that on the other thread so I didn't see a need to reply to it.
That's why I'm interested it's something I don't have a great deal of experience of so that's why I'm asking questions, if you think I'm unusual in labelling skadistic as callous and insensative, believe me he'd find his attitude met with the same sort of derrrision from most British people. I'm not unusual.
Desmond Hawkins
Deity
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Well, I was more impressed with the points that the best thing people could do is improve the primary education system in the United States, which would ultimately be a political decision.
As for social mobility, I doubt America is actually better than other developed countries. Especially when the Ivy League appears to be a affirmative action for lazy rich/connected kids who never actually had to get in based on merit.
As for social mobility, I doubt America is actually better than other developed countries. Especially when the Ivy League appears to be a affirmative action for lazy rich/connected kids who never actually had to get in based on merit.
I would argue that the current system of public school funding (which relies hevily on property taxes), inhibits the "Equality of Oppertunity". Public Schools with rich tax bases are better than public schools in poor tax bases.
Sidhe here's a few things to think about. My city is subject to that book and like I said there's some disconnect here.
Here's a few bullets from my perspective regarding the problems within the poor African American community. I've had this conversation with a teacher who is African American who came out of that community.
Here's a few bullets from my perspective regarding the problems within the poor African American community. I've had this conversation with a teacher who is African American who came out of that community.
- Family structure (Grandmothers tend to raise a lot of children)
- Education as a priority (coming straight from a teacher who teaches multiple ethnicities)
- Distrust of institutions (investing is not a priority)
- Gang Inc. (they provide for everything including an informal health plan)
- The lure of the street (even though the book explains working the street pays less than minimum wage and may lead to getting shot...dealers with cash in their pocket are king)
- Role Models (Michael Jordan not Stan O'Neal)
- Glass ceilings (success is looked down upon and many successful African Americans move out of the community). See 50 cent' comments on Oprah.
Bingo. You're so money and you don't even know it.
I'd like to point out that these arent unique to urban America (well, maybe the gang bit is...I'm having trouble thinking of the rural equivilant)...they happen in poor rural areas too. My mother also works for a charter school, which picks up a lot of student in very rural southeastern Ohio, and we see the same things. Babies having babies, so grandmas are doing the mothering...communities not supporting students, or being active in keeping them from being sucsessful (dont get above your rasin'!!)...distrust of the educated, etc.
Any effort to change the culture of the poor would have to both address the inequality of public schooling, and these cultural issues.
Desmond Hawkins
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I was confused here. Were you saying it IS a priority? Or that the problem is that it is NOT a priority?
Fugitive Sisyphus
Escape Artist
Why does it matter who has the most jelly-beans? It is one thing if people are starving in the streets but that is not the case in the United States. There is plenty of wealth to go around but who cares if someone has more of it than another? People, money isn't everything. Life is everything, freedom is everything, family is everything.
I might as well say that it is a great social injustice that a small part of the population is getting laid much more often than the majority of the population and that we should "redistribute the sex" so that everyone gets laid an equal amount.
I might as well say that it is a great social injustice that a small part of the population is getting laid much more often than the majority of the population and that we should "redistribute the sex" so that everyone gets laid an equal amount.
Why does it matter who has the most jelly-beans? It is one thing if people are starving in the streets but that is not the case in the United States. There is plenty of wealth to go around but who cares if someone has more of it than another? People, money isn't everything. Life is everything, freedom is everything, family is everything.
I might as well say that is a great social injustice that a small part of the population is getting laid much more often than the majority of the population and that we should "redistribute the sex" so that everyone gets laid an equal amount.
Run for government, I don't think it would be popular with the right, but the liberals would probably vote for you
It is not a priority and in many cases kids are looked down on if they excel.
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
More funding doesn't equal improved results.
I see it as being more sociological; parents that live in rich tax bases generally are more likely to care about their children's education, and encourage them to stay in school and to later become a part of their income group, if not a higher one.
The public school system is also in disarray in part because of the incompetence of officials that are responsible for handling public education. I wouldn't set foot in a Washington D.C. school, because there are teachers there who (to borrow a phrase from Thomas "Hollywood" Henderson) couldn't spell "cat" if you spotted them the "C" and the "T".
It doesn't, if the other aspects arent addressed, at least in part. However, surely you dont think that inner city/rural schools are *well* funded.
For my Eagle Scout project, me and some buddies set up a bookdrive for a rural public district in SE Ohio. The Middle School had no library. No books! Now, they have one from donated books from Columbus Suburbs. Not good...but better.
I dont really have a good answer for finding a better way to fund schools (other than property taxes). I dont like massive school wealth redistribution, because I think groups of people can get addicted to the dole, just like individuals can. I dont like school vouchers, because private schools don't have the same oversight that publics do, and most are totally unqualified for special needs students. Plus, I dont want my money to pay for Catholic education.
But I think its fair to say that the current system doesnt work well.
Theres the free market for you. You get the talent that you can afford. Low budgets = crappy teachers. (which isn't to say that there arent some really good teachers in DC public...but quality of staffing is an issue in inner city/rural districts)
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
The Washington D.C. public school district spends more per pupil than any state in America and teacher salaries are 13th highest in the nation.
Source: National Education Association
Well I can tell you it's very frustrating when my fiancee' who has her education masters from Columbia is not rewarded for her teaching skills but is wasted within the largest bureaucracy in the state of Illinois (Chgo. Pub. School system).
It can be a little frustrating when her friends are making 4-5 times her with a lot less education. She loves teaching primary education but the income makes it very difficult for her to not consider becoming a professor. If she didn't have me she'd have to. She went back to public schools because teaching the Latin School kids (Pritzkers et al) is not a challenge.
There is a system in Chicago to get your kids into the best public schools (magnets and charters) here. A lot of young successful people in their 20's and 30's are learning how to work that system rather than spend $20,000 to send their 1st grader to Latin
It can be a little frustrating when her friends are making 4-5 times her with a lot less education. She loves teaching primary education but the income makes it very difficult for her to not consider becoming a professor. If she didn't have me she'd have to. She went back to public schools because teaching the Latin School kids (Pritzkers et al) is not a challenge.
There is a system in Chicago to get your kids into the best public schools (magnets and charters) here. A lot of young successful people in their 20's and 30's are learning how to work that system rather than spend $20,000 to send their 1st grader to Latin
The article also shows that in *real* dollars (adjusted for inflation), DC public teacher pay has dropped by over 5% over the last 10 years.
The average salary, from the 2003 article, is $47,049 a year. In Ohio, thats really good money. In Washington DC...it really isn't. If you're a teaching prospect, with offers in say, DC, VA and Maryland, all other factors being equal (which they aren't), with all three states offering 47 and change, you'd teach where your money is worth more. The cost of living in DC is *huuuge*.
Of course, I'm sure we can agree that DC Public has more problems than just teacher salary.
skadistic
Caomhanach
I didn't say couldn't argue but the real logical falseness is you trying to tell me what its like to be poor in America because you read about it.
I'm still waiting for answers to my questions. Why not answer them point for point? I just want to establish what expert insite you have about being poor in America. They deserve more attention then you gave them. Come now tell me what its like to be poor in America. Tell me how long you endured it. Tell me how you got out of it. Tell me how many poor Americans you talked to. Tell me where and how and when.
Tell me oh great expert that knows exactly what its like to be poor in America how come there are less poor people today then any other time in America.
As I've said before that's a result of improved welfare and better education in developed countries, and it's happening in all countries, it's not your argument I disagree with it's your attitude. It seems rather insensitive.
