Asian Leaderhead Mega pack

[egroen]

Hmmm slavery, mass genocide, biological warfare? Sounds like whate the Spanish, English and Americans did for 400 years to the native americans. And the african slave trade? There was never justice handed to them, and the people resposible for this are still seen has heros.

No argument from me... but we are talking different time periods. I am comparing the japanese of the 30s and 40s to the nazis. The atrocities committed by the japanese were on the same level, if not worse.

Many of the reperations you are talking about have only been in existance for the past decade or two at the most and are a drop in the bucket compared to what Germany has paid out. Only a hundred or so japanese leaders were ever tried as war criminals, compared to tens of thousands of germans, few were convicted and many that were were imprisoned for only a few years and reached prominence after their release -- Prime Minister, Justice Minister, head of the Green Cross and heads of numerous universities and medical organizations... for decades and decades there was some serious white-washing. As recently as the nineties political and educational leaders in japan were denying the Nanking Massacre ever took place and it was absent from school textbooks (as well as denials over the thousands of asian sex slaves taken). It's even a crime in Germany to deny the Holocaust.

I don't think there was even an official apology from the Prime Minister of Japan until 1995 and it was rejected by parliamant for years.

So many know of the jewish holocaust but so few are aware of the Nanking Massacre, let alone Unit 731 and the hundreds like it. I have to believe the uproar you are experiencing now is more over the decades the japanese simply refused to face their own actions, let alone make any reperations or attempts to educate their citizens. The US has played and plays a large part in this by the way... they still feel they need a strong japan as a buffer to communist china.

Why would you want to wear a T Shirt of Tojo, a Class-A convicted war criminal, anyways? Why the heck was he ever enshrined with other war criminals at Yasukuni? For years and years the japanese have portrayed themselves as victims of imperialist western powers and enlightened liberators of asia during that time period... for us to imagine the germans portraying themselves in such a way is ludicrous or of the german prime minister going each year to honor an enshrined gravesite of Hitler... no matter whom else he is buried with.

Germans have pride in their country, their culture and their history... just not of the nazis. Why would you want to have pride in the japanese leaders of the 30s and 40s? Doesn't Japan have better to offer?

An extensive site which keeps track of japanese reperations:
http://www.skycitygallery.com/japan/japan.html

 

[egroen]

And China of all places shouldn't be forcing Japan to be paying for past war crimes...

For decades the chinese government forbade its citizens to ask for any reperations. The chinese government has never officially asked for any. The US and Britain never forced Japan's hand monetarily, like they did with Germany. To Japan's credit, they have been more generous with financial aid to china over the past two decades... but we are still talking $50 billion or so shy of what Germany has paid, forced and voluntarily.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Don't you think it is hypocretical of China with its "Cultural Revulation" and Tiamamin Square massacre to be getting money because of past warcrimes.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

im not saying what the Japanese did was ok, im saying the white "americans" who have erased races of people and are still on foreign land (america) seem to have double standards. how much money has been given to the african americans anyways? Yasukuni is a warshrine for all soldiers of Japan, everyone. Also not that many people in Asia know about the nazis, in the 90s in korea and japan nazi clothing and such was popular, it was only recently that it stopped, probably because of western visiters to Japan. Im not going to say anymore because i dont want to get in trouble with civfanatics or make angry asians.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

There are two Americas now Shiro, the America that we Americans would like to believe our country is, to the point of denying reality, and the America that is.

 

[egroen]

im not saying what the Japanese did was ok, im saying the white "americans" who have erased races of people and are still on foreign land (america) seem to have double standards. how much money has been given to the african americans anyways?

I agree... but I don't think there is a nation on earth not guilty of horrible crimes against humanity at some point. Perhaps we should all go after the mongols in court?

Anyways, personally I am not in favor of monetary reperations per se (from the US to american indians/africans or from japan to china); How do you value human lives? But I do value education and holding oneself accountable... of which Germany has done. The US should have immediately helped and educated regarding american indians and african americans (at least they do so now). I just hope the japanese stop denying their past atrocities.

Also not that many people in Asia know about the nazis, in the 90s in korea and japan nazi clothing and such was popular...

That sucks, like I said, westerners are pretty clueless when it comes to Japan also but it seems like the japanese people have been purposely made clueless for a few decades when it comes to japan (in the 30s and 40s), too... which hopefully is righted.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

no all japanese know what happend, all. Japan doesnt deny there has been appologies.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

OK, this will be one of the very few times that I will actually get political here :

As one of Chinese descent, I must say that I am quite disappointed that there has been a bit of an attempt on the part of ultra-conservative Japanese leaders to deny the "Rape of Nanjing." As an aggressive power in World War II, it is my opinion that Japan must accept responsibility for its invasion of China and Korea. However, unlike many my fellow Chinese, I don't think it is practical or reasonable to cling on to all the garbage that happened in the past. Indeed, we should remember what happened, but at the same time we can't hold it against the Japanese forever because 1) we're not in 1945 anymore; 2) simple blaming of the children for the sins of the father is never going to get anything solved as all it does is make an "us" versus "them" situation; 3) the way politicians (on BOTH the Chinese and Japanese side) use the plight of the victims of war to further their own political means is absolutely repulsive. Nationalism in itself is utterly irrational (World War I and World War II has already shown the world where THAT lead them). Unless we continue on clinging on little things like "national pride" (whatever that means) and finally figure out that we're all human and all inherently equal in our stupidity, we're just going to keep on being two squabbling little kids that are trying to prove that "my dog is bigger than your dog." One of these days, someone is going to have to collect all the leaders of the world, stick them in little rooms, give them a nice dunce hat, and make them sit in the corner so they can think about what they've done.

-Now let us exit "political mode" and get back ON TOPIC because none of these arguments are really getting us anywhere, as none of it pertains to the actual project at hand.

 

[Rambuchan]

You guys should really take the debate to OT or History forums, which are designed speficially for such activities.

There is very little to do with Asian Leaderheads in last handful of posts on this thread, which appears in 'Creation & Customisation'!

Now I quite forgot why I came to this thread. Oh yeah, the Genghis LH. Well I got swamped by the debate and will probably comment on it later....

 

[Gojira54]

Is there any country that has never commited atrocities at some point in it's history? AFAIK no country is 100% innocent, and nobody in these forums ever played a direct part in commiting them. At least I hope not.

How are the Hawaiian LHs coming, Shiro?

 

[ShiroKobbure]

havent even started. Going to finish Atilla, and Genghis and then one more if I have time right now Im thinking of: Ainu, Aborigeni, polynesian. One of those. Im going to do all but its a matter of releasing in this weekend.
Also:
Should I keep working on my Asian head? Or do Shirou's IV leaderhead elections?
and finish Asia after that.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

I think you should continue making Asian leaderheads. We really, really need more of them.

By the way, I've made a map of major civilizations and regional powers in pre-industrial East Asia. These civs are not necessarily contemporaries (as civilizations flux and change over time), but they can give a good idea on what other civs to do. I guess you can also use it for SoG's "Battlefield Asia" mod (assuming that you might go back to work on that someday ). If you need the names for leaders, I can supply them soon.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

Im going to Redo Nepal. Probably wont do Sukhothai Lan Na or Ayuddya. Parhae sounds interesting but its basically a korean kindgom + I dont Korean props. Im only going to make one indonesian civ, mostly because of props.
Maybes:
Lan Chang, Kambujadesa, Champa, Uighur(manily because the clothing would just be too similar to atila and genghis) Yue. I would like to do Korea, but I might not.
For sure:
Nepal
Burma
Bhutan
Tibet
Ryukyu

 

[ShiroKobbure]

did you like the forest background better for ancient?

 

[Gojira54]

While I love lotteries, Asian first!

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

I think Shiro and I will eventually get back to Battlefield Asia, but lately we have both been really busy with our projects and we decided we wouldn't do the mod until we could devote full time to it.

If you can't decide which background to use for Attila, desert or forest shiro, you could always flip a coin, in my mind those two backgrounds are both great but I can't decide which one is more appropriate as I'm not familiar with the Huns.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

Polynesia? Im willing to make 2 maybe 3 polynesian heads. Im thinking Hawaiian, Rapanui, and maybe one more

 

[Gojira54]

My vote for the third would be Tongan. Always been partial to Tonga.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Im going to Redo Nepal. Probably wont do Sukhothai Lan Na or Ayuddya. Parhae sounds interesting but its basically a korean kindgom + I dont Korean props. Im only going to make one indonesian civ, mostly because of props.

Sukhothai and Ayuddhya eventually become Siam, so there isn't a need for leaderheads for them since we already have two Suryiothai leaderheads. One of them can possibly be used for Camadevi of Haripunjaya, which is in northern Thailand and I think Adittaraja of Lan Na had his lineage traced to her (Adittaraja's story is in the Camadevi-vamsa, after all). The other could be used for Suriyothai of Siam (Lan Na and Siam, which consisted of Ayuddhya merged with Sukhothai, coexisted if I recall correctly). So in a nutshell, there isn't a need for leaderheads for them. I just put them there in case you want to use them for "Battlefield Asia."

As for an Indonesian civ, I think the best ones would be either Srivijaya (*I just noticed that I spelled it wrong on the map ) since it was a very major regional power or Java since they monopolized the spice trade when they became the kingdom of Majapahit, not to mention that the Javanese were also the builders of Borobudur. It's kind of hard to say which one merits a leaderhead more.

I recall that you had a preview of a nice Taewang Sejong leaderhead a while back. What happened to that one? Choson royal robes were based on Chinese ones and were red and yellow (like that pic I posted a while ago).

EDIT: Actually, I was mistaken. Lan Na is a Tai kingdom and Haripunjaya (Lamphun) was Mon. When Lan Na absorbed Haripunjaya, they incorporated Queen Cama into their history (as a means of legitimizing themselves). SE Asian history is highly complicated.

 

[BadKharma]

did you like the forest background better for ancient?

I think that looks awsome as it is there.