Ask a Basque Thread

[Josu]

Now that you're already discussing the issue, could you describe what would change for Catalonia or the Basque Country economically should they become independent? Do they currently have to financially support other Spanish regions, similar to the Italian system? Or is it Spanish economic policy that hurts them?

That's a very good question and actually is a quite tabu speaking about real numbers.
The basque autnonomous comunnty has an agreement (concierto economico) with the central goverment that regulates the taxation and financial relations. There are as well some issues in which the basque country has competeces such as education or health (there are a lot more), they are called transferences.
Bassically this agreement means that taxes are collected in the basque country and the basque country takes from taxes the money we spent in transferences and we pay to Spanish Goverment a fee for the transferences belonging to them, such as defense. So we manage some taxes at our will, I think that they have been always managed better in basque country than in other areas, so we have a better welfare and better jobless rate. There are not many public studies saying wheter this agreement benefits or harms our economy or spanish economy, and the few you will found are very factional.

If becoming independet I have no doubt that our welfare would improve, we must not forget that there is a very important industrial market in basque country but the main problem, is that the basque country is not electrically independent, so it would generate a hughe deficit.

 

[gangleri2001]

Now that you're already discussing the issue, could you describe what would change for Catalonia or the Basque Country economically should they become independent? Do they currently have to financially support other Spanish regions, similar to the Italian system? Or is it Spanish economic policy that hurts them?

Here's when Catalonia and the Basque Country are two different planets. While the Basque Country has, as Josu said, the complete control of taxes and some transferences belong via law to the Basques only, this situation doesn't happen in Catalonia.

Spain has two kinds of autonomous communities: the foral communities and the common regime communities. The foral regimes have their own historical rights which allows them the be completely autonomous in fiscal policy and some exclusive transferences (education, welfare, etc.). The foral communities are the Basque Country and Navarre. All the others are common regime communities, which means that they have no control at all of fiscal policies and the transferences made by the central government are mere cessions, which means that the central government may recover them if they please. In other words: autonomies that depend for everything important on the central government's policies.

While the Basques have complete control of their money, the Catalans aren't, and this is what may trigger a Catalan secession sooner than we expect. Left wing independentist Basques (known as abertzales) are probably going to get a LOT of votes (probably even a majority) in the Basque elections next year because after years of illegalization they have earned lots of simpaties among Basque voters and decades of the ETA conflict have made the wide majority of Basque society be in favor of independence. However, as Josu already said, the Basque economy is in a good shape even in the current circumstances, so the Basque bourgeoisie has no reasons to push for independence even though everyone knows that most Basques want independence. In other words: The Basque people wants secession except the elite which decides this because they lack a good reason to do so. Many members of the elite can and do in fact stand for independence, but since they don't have a good reason to push for it, they prefer keep voting an immobilist party such as the PNV.

Meanwhile in Catalonia the economy is sinking, unemployment rates have reached all time highs and the fact that everything important is controled by the central government makes the Catalan government unable to solve the pushing problems of the people. All this added to the fact that Catalonia suffers the highest fiscal deficit in Europe and that central government has spent and is still spending thousands of milions of euros in moronic policies such as totally useless high speed trains or airports that anybody uses has given as a result an all time high strength of the independentist movement. However, since in Catalan society there has no been a conflict such has ETA, Catalan independentism has had a more gradual rise since post-francoism until the present day, which means that there's plenty of people still undecided, although the current tendence is one of rise of independentism. And unlike Basque elites, Catalan elites do already have good reasons to push for independence (which means that before didn't). This has lead to some kind of schism between the loyalist elite (those who will stand on Spain's side no matter what) and those who see that there's no other way out of the crisis than independence. However, both sides of the elite keep supporting the immobilism of CiU out of sheer conservatism and prudence. Besides, the independentist members of the elite prefer spending time convincing the still undecided members of our society. If things keep this way the question is not if we will reach a clear social majority that will support independence and a majority of the elite will show support of independence, but when will the conjunction of both reach critical mass.

 

[Josu]

While the Basques have complete control of their money, the Catalans aren't, and this is what may trigger a Catalan secession sooner than we expect. Left wing independentist Basques (known as abertzales) are probably going to get a LOT of votes (probably even a majority) in the Basque elections next year because after years of illegalization they have earned lots of simpaties among Basque voters and decades of the ETA conflict have made the wide majority of Basque society be in favor of independence. However, as Josu already said, the Basque economy is in a good shape even in the current circumstances, so the Basque bourgeoisie has no reasons to push for independence even though everyone knows that most Basques want independence. In other words: The Basque people wants secession except the elite which decides this because they lack a good reason to do so. Many members of the elite can and do in fact stand for independence, but since they don't have a good reason to push for it, they prefer keep voting an immobilist party such as the PNV.

Gangleri2001, almost absolutely agree with you, however, two notes above this paragraph:
1) The ETA conflict have never helped de cause of independence. In fact, I am pretty sure that if ETA had been disolved when Franco died, the Basque nationalism would be much more extended
2) Abertzale does not mean left wing independentist. Abertzale means patriot. For some reason I am not able to undertstand the Spanish press has tried to link this word with the left wing nationalism.

 

[gangleri2001]

1) I've reread what I wrote and I've seen that it may be misunderstood pretty easily, so let me tell you why I said that. The ETA conflict "helped" to radicalize Basque society in contrast with Catalan society, where there was no radicalizing factor and therefore, the adoption of independentism by the majority of society is a more gradual process. In other words, while in the Basque Country ETA made everyone choose if they stood for or against independence pretty soon, in Catalonia nothing made Catalan society have to choose early on between independence or union and that's why even right now, when members of the elite have or are converting to independentism, there's still lots of Catalans who don't know what side choose. In other words, ETA and specially Spain's reaction to it is what made you see as a society that independence is the way to go (though there're still lots of Basques completely against independence, as we know), which didn't happen in Catalonia.

2) I'm well aware of that fact because I studied a year of Basque in the university. That term emerged in press due to the need of finding a left-wing equivalent to the term jetlzale (members and supporters of the PNV party for those who ignore its meaning). Since the left wing independentists have always been known as "left-wing abertzales", the press chose this name. Since outside the Basque Country nobody knows what does abertzale mean, the repeated usage of the term "left-wing abertzale" made everybody associate abertzale with left-wing independentism and that's why it's used this way outside the Basque Country.

 

[Josu]

1) I've reread what I wrote and I've seen that it may be misunderstood pretty easily, so let me tell you why I said that. The ETA conflict "helped" to radicalize Basque society in contrast with Catalan society, where there was no radicalizing factor and therefore, the adoption of independentism by the majority of society is a more gradual process. In other words, while in the Basque Country ETA made everyone choose if they stood for or against independence pretty soon, in Catalonia nothing made Catalan society have to choose early on between independence or union and that's why even right now, when members of the elite have or are converting to independentism, there's still lots of Catalans who don't know what side choose. In other words, ETA and specially Spain's reaction to it is what made you see as a society that independence is the way to go (though there're still lots of Basques completely against independence, as we know), which didn't happen in Catalonia.

Agree, basque society is more radicalized

2) I'm well aware of that fact because I studied a year of Basque in the university. That term emerged in press due to the need of finding a left-wing equivalent to the term jetlzale (members and supporters of the PNV party for those who ignore its meaning). Since the left wing independentists have always been known as "left-wing abertzales", the press chose this name. Since outside the Basque Country nobody knows what does abertzale mean, the repeated usage of the term "left-wing abertzale" made everybody associate abertzale with left-wing independentism and that's why it's used this way outside the Basque Country.

That's rigth, in fact JELtzale(PNV member) does not make direct references to patriostism or basque country, JEL stands for Jaungoigoa Eta Legezarra (please do not mistake this ETA with the terrosism group, ETA in basque means and), God and old laws

 

[DroopyTofu]

I really know nothing about the situation, but would Catalan and Basque ever be able or willing to work together for independence and maybe even become an independent nation together? Would they rather be independent from Spain but somewhat reliant on each other or would being controlled by Madrid be better for Basque and Catalan nationalists? In other words, which is the lesser of two evils, status quo or getting independence but working together to get it and creating a Basque-Catalan state independent of Spain?

 

[Josu]

I really know nothing about the situation, but would Catalan and Basque ever be able or willing to work together for independence and maybe even become an independent nation together? Would they rather be independent from Spain but somewhat reliant on each other or would being controlled by Madrid be better for Basque and Catalan nationalists? In other words, which is the lesser of two evils, status quo or getting independence but working together to get it and creating a Basque-Catalan state independent of Spain?

Basque-Catalan state I think is almost impossible because there are no similarities between our cultural particularities, furthermore it would be a bit weird creating such kind of state taking in account that Catalonia and Basque country are not geographically in touch.
On the other hand there is a while since basque nationalists and catalan nationalists work together. For example in elections for europarliament PNV and CiU went in alliance, same thing for Eusko Alkartasuna (Basque moderate left nationalism and currently member of Amaiur alliance) and ERC (Catalan left nationalistm)

The question of what is lesser of two evils is the million dollar question. It is a fact that Catalonia and Basque country are two of the most important economic cores inside Spain so I think working together and having a common roadmap would be a good idea. However I am not able to pick off the better option.

 

[gangleri2001]

The lesser of two evil in this case is status quo. Basques are Basques and Catalans are Catalans in everything they can be (economically, socialy, politically, culturally, etc.). Mixing two nations that have never been together and that have never wanted to be is a bad idea no matter what. Sure status quo sucks (specially for Catalans), but it's better than creating out of thin air a state that nobody has even thought of. As Josu said, we do work together when and where it's necessary and the best thing is keep it that way.

I do understand that from the outside the Iberian Peninsula and its peoples look the same mainly because Spain's propaganda has ereased form foreign minds Basques, Catalans, Portuguese and Galicians, but trust when I say that the differences among us are immense. The best proof of this is that we have the last pre-indo-european people in the whole of Europe.


PD: This thread is starting to look like an Ask a Basque and a Catalan thread.

 

[Josu]

First impression after reading it was WTH!!!

I have googled it and it may be a bodice. will have to check why this name

BTW, I checked this matter and forgot to comment here, it iseems that in the beginins basque(bodice) was a tradicional basque women dressing, some French women adopted it and called basque.

PD: This thread is starting to look like an Ask a Basque and a Catalan thread.

I agree
BTW, and in order to change a little the subject, next week, some commemorative acts have been planed in the Gernika due to the 75 anniversary of the bombing. Which lead Picasso to draw this:

 

[Borachio]

I've just remembered something I meant to ask and didn't. Isn't, or wasn't, there some popular display in Basque land involving red and white clothing, as some kind of expression of solidarity? Or am I wool-gathering? (maybe you've already covered this, and I've missed it.)

If there has been such a thing, and I do honestly remember seeing loads of Basques dressed in this way, what was the symbolism about?

 

[Josu]

I've just remembered something I meant to ask and didn't. Isn't, or wasn't, there some popular display in Basque land involving red and white clothing, as some kind of expression of solidarity? Or am I wool-gathering? (maybe you've already covered this, and I've missed it.)

If there has been such a thing, and I do honestly remember seeing loads of Basques dressed in this way, what was the symbolism about?

Red & white like the clothing the lion is wearing in my avatar?
If yes, it is not expression of solidarity, they are the colors for Athletic Club, Soccer team from Bilbao. One of most popular soccer teams in basque country, always played first division of La Liga, won several titles some years ago, having a basque only players policy. It is specially popular in province of Biscay.

If not, I will check it, but I am not aware about it

 

[Borachio]

Yeah, well, red, white and green are the Basque colours, national flag as well. But I seem to recall, from some years ago, seeing crowds and crowds of people mainly dressed in white with red scarfs etc, demonstrating their national identity.

But really it's not an important issue; merely a passing interest that I thought you might know about.

And how far back do the Basques in general go in considering their heritage? Is it something of which most of your people are aware? I would expect yes.

BTW according to Wiki the football club colours were acquired fortuitously by someone on a shopping trip to Britain!

 

[Josu]

Yeah, well, red, white and green are the Basque colours, national flag as well. But I seem to recall, from some years ago, seeing crowds and crowds of people mainly dressed in white with red scarfs etc, demonstrating their national identity.

But really it's not an important issue; merely a passing interest that I thought you might know about.

Hmmmm, right know I can not remember any national identity sign that is just red and white.
Actually, just this two colours are avoid as identity colours because Athletic Club does not represent all the basques, although some people would like this way. There is quite big friendly rivalry between Athletic Club and Real Sociedad, from Donostia - San Sebastian, so this colours are avoid. In any case, when Athletic Club is having good results many people in Bilbao wears the colours, three years ago, we played King's cup final against Barcelona in Valencia and there were stamps like this

And if team wins a title (last time in 1984) you can find something like the ones in this video

Link to video.

I hope this year we can see it again , we are allready qualified for King's cup final and we are playing Europe League's semifinal against Sporting Clube de Portugal, we lost first leg last week 2-1, but next Thursday the second leg will be played in Bilbao, if Athletic Club passes, it will be club's first European final in 35 years.

And how far back do the Basques in general go in considering their heritage? Is it something of which most of your people are aware? I would expect yes.

Unfortunatelly, it ussaly depends on political feelings, in general, some people that is Spanish unionist does not have to much consideration on basque heritage, some of them deny learning basque and misprize it. There are as well people that is unionist that defends basque culture, but considers that it is better for our culture remaining in Spain.

In any case, the basque language is the key in our heritage. Basque language is our most valuable treasure. Basque language is our identity. There is traditional basque song saying "Ez al dakizu euskara dela euskaldun eg¡ten gaituena" Didn't you know that basque language is what make us basques?
Whitout understanding that our language is our differenciator it is impossible to understand our culture.

BTW according to Wiki the football club colours were acquired fortuitously by someone on a shopping trip to Britain!

Absoultely true, originary club's colours was completely white, in 1903 the club decided to change it due to King's cup. Some merchant had to travel to England and offered themselves to buy the new kit, their bussiness was in Blackburn so they bought blue and white kit.
Some years later, in 1910, another bussinessman traveled to England and was in charge of buying some kits again but the blue and white kits where unavailable. The bussinessman was about to came back without kits, but before shipping in southampton he bougth southampton's red and white kits, that coincide with city of Bilbao's flag's colours. We have been red and white since then.

 

[gangleri2001]

Tomorrow we are gonna see something like this:


Link to video.

 

[Josu]

Tomorrow we are gonna see something like this:


Link to video.

I wish not, I do not want to see disorders. I wish we can see a good game with Athletic club's victory and there are no confrontations between people in the football match and people in the fascist demostration.
As an explanation, tomorrow Athletic Club and FC Barcelona will play the King's cup final in Madrid.
3 Years ago the final was played as well by these two teams and Spanish anthem and king were whistled and booed by both club's supporters.

Tomorrow a similar answer is expected in consequence (please note the italics), some extreme right spanish parties have called for a demostration against the biggest attackin the history to the spanish unity (sic)
So we will see thounsands of Basque and Catalan people in Madrid coinciding with some extreme right fascists.
I wish nothing happens but football, in any case if something happens I am pretty sure that it won't be a "battle royal", I think that they will try to "hunt" a supporter who is alone or similar, the people in the march won't approach the fan zones because there will be at least 25000 people in each fan zone (there is many people from bilbao going to Madrid without ticket, just to watch the match in the fanzone), and they will be losing, but who knows, the march conveners are crap, even Ricardo Saez de Ynestrillas (Spanish fascist leader) has said that this march is a joke and has considered conveners as scum.

 

[gangleri2001]

I wish not, I do not want to see disorders. I wish we can see a good game with Athletic club's victory and there are no confrontations between people in the football match and people in the fascist demostration.

The Irish and the Scotish getting along well in a "battle" for the English king (who's watching BTW) and you didn't get it. Man, I am disappoint.

 

[Josu]

The Irish and the Scotish getting along well in a "battle" for the English king (who's watching BTW) and you didn't get it. Man, I am disappoint.

Yes, i got it, I don't give to much importance to this particular issue because the king won't be in the match, I am still more worried about the fascist march

 

[Josu]

You can not imagine my face (WTH) when I saw the next video this morning.
A perdormance by Madonna that includes the traditional Basque song "Aldapeko", starts in minute 2:14


Link to video.

 

[metatron]

[...] nowadays we are one of the economic strongest spots in Spain, for example while unemploiment rate in spain now is about 20%, it is the half in Basque country.

I knew about this and i have wondered in the past why that is so.
So: Why is that?
Does Euskadi have some practical advantage, like access to resources or above average infrastructure? Or do the Basques have a very industrious mindset?

More questions:
1. Why are the Basques in France so much less interested in this whole independence thing?
2. How does religion work out in Euskadi (or in Aragon for that matter)? Are Basques less religious? More? Differently?
3. @gangleri: Forgive me, i am totally naive. I know that the Basques have that weird language and whatnot, but i am completely clueless about Aragonese culture?
How is it different from Castillian? What are the differences in mindset etc?

 

[Josu]

I knew about this and i have wondered in the past why that is so.
So: Why is that?
Does Euskadi have some practical advantage, like access to resources or above average infrastructure? Or do the Basques have a very industrious mindset?

This is due to a mix of historical, geographical and cultural reasons. For isntance we have never had a landowner culture as in other parts of spain and we have had more culture of merchant or bourgeoisie. This leaded to development of new industries during the industrial era. Basque country was rich in iron and cooper mines. The Englishmen arrived and basque bourgeoisie worked with them in mines' exploiting. The economical profits where used in development of new industries such as shipping and machine tool. Besides this basque company owners started to send their sons to England in order to have an academic training. All his happened lesser extent in other peninsula areas. Machine tool industry still is very strong here in Basque country.

This lack of landowner culture I would say that is a legacy of the basque carters but I could not ensure it

More questions:
1. Why are the Basques in France so much less interested in this whole independence thing?

I would say that this is because of the "uniformity" carried by the French Republic and its Liberte, egalite and fraternite. They feel more part of France than we (Spanish basques) feel part of Spain

2. How does religion work out in Euskadi (or in Aragon for that matter)? Are Basques less religious? More? Differently?

Historicaly we have been extremelly religious. The power of catholic church have, and maybe still is, great (very big, not oh yeah, cool, Great!! ). Curch was a political and cultural reference. Nowadays the number of belivers has decreased so I would say that their power is not the same.

3. @gangleri: Forgive me, i am totally naive. I know that the Basques have that weird language and whatnot, but i am completely clueless about Aragonese culture?
How is it different from Castillian? What are the differences in mindset etc?

I will let gangleri answer this question