Ask a Mormon, Part 3

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So...Lutherans are not christians then? Baptists?
In some degree they are not technically the First church or creed.

Okay, so you say that to be Christian, one must be Roman Catholic, and you base that on the claim that the Roman Catholic Church is essentially the early Church as founded by the apostles and disciples of Jesus?
Did I stutter? I thought that I was being clear.:confused:

By that standards, neither Mormonism, nor most of what is usually called the Christian world, can be considered Christianity
That is pretty much the standpoint of the recent Pope as of now. And frankly, I find it more plausible since historical records support that claim.

I call into question your second answer (the records don't really say that) and your first depends on it, but yes, by that definition Mormonism isn't Christian.
Is Eran conceiving a revelation by this statement?:lol:

So what exactly was your question?
My questions is listed in post #174 - which you have doggedly dodge them by giving me a set of your own questions.;)
 
In some degree they are not technically the First church or creed.

Well, there is no rule that only the first of something can legitimately use the term in question. In other words, even if Catholicism is the first Christian Church, that shouldn't make them the only one.

Did I stutter? I thought that I was being clear.:confused:

Oh no, I just wanted to be sure. Because your definition of "Christian" is a very unusual one, which no one but the most fundamentalist Catholics uses. And you never struck me as a fundamentalist Catholic.

That is pretty much the standpoint of the recent Pope as of now. And frankly, I find it more plausible since historical records support that claim.

The historical records of which I am aware do not. Peter himself never claimed the title of pope; the Bishop of Rome did not gain supremacy within Christendom until centuries later. Now one may say that it was God's intention all along that this be the case, but that is an article of faith of Catholicism, basically, there are no historical records to prove it.

Is Eran conceiving a revelation by this statement?:lol:

No, just drawing the only conclusion that can be drawn if we accept your basic assumptions as given.

My questions is listed in post #174 - which you have doggedly dodge them by giving me a set of your own questions.;)

No, I didn't know what you meant. But I guess this (somewhat difficult to understand question) is it:

So Mormonism is indeed, by what you are exclaiming it to be, a mere "reformed Christianity" as when the early days of the Christian movement after Jesus death being a reformed Judaic Cult?

That is not how we view ourselves. We do not claim to reform Christianity but to completely restore it from its original state. In other words, we are not aiming to fix Christianity as it has existed for the last 2000 years; that form of Christianity has gotten too far off track from what it was originally supposed to be, so we needed to start completely over.

Now, you could say that from a historical, outside perspective, that Mormonism branches off of Christianity in a manner similar to that of Chrristianity branching off of Judaism, but a) that's not how we see ourselves and b) we have more in common with mainstream Christianity than mainstream Christianity has with Judaism.
 
Well, there is no rule that only the first of something can legitimately use the term in question. In other words, even if Catholicism is the first Christian Church, that shouldn't make them the only one.
True and I agree with you on that one. But, I am saying that as long as freedoms are allowed for people to create a new church that does not adhere to Catholic dogma, then there will always be more churches claiming to be entitled as the right one. For example: Mormonism being developed in United States and being protected and allowed to grow into the religion as of today (eventhough they were persecuted many times by other established christians, but still manage to survive by finding lands in the Virgin West territory that soon became Utah as one of the many places of their settlement).

Oh no, I just wanted to be sure. Because your definition of "Christian" is a very unusual one, which no one but the most fundamentalist Catholics uses. And you never struck me as a fundamentalist Catholic.
Not a Catholic by the way. Just being realistic.:D



The historical records of which I am aware do not. Peter himself never claimed the title of pope
Jesus claim that Peter should build the first Church. So, therefore, he is the infallible leader and the beginning of the first Church of the Christian movement.

the Bishop of Rome did not gain supremacy within Christendom until centuries later. Now one may say that it was God's intention all along that this be the case, but that is an article of faith of Catholicism, basically, there are no historical records to prove it.
Tell me, who in the beginning scribed those historical records when Christianity became triumphant as the end-all and for-all of the people of the Roman Empire? Answer: Mainly Catholics (with some exception to the rare few who were pagans and other antiquadated Christian sects that died out).


That is not how we view ourselves. We do not claim to reform Christianity but to completely restore it from its original state.
Let me ask you a question: Inorder to restore something from its so-called original state, do you have to reform in order to achieve that goal? If you want to resort by saying that restore is not changing nor fixing, then by God, you are really confusing yourself of what "reform" really means.:rolleyes:

In other words, we are not aiming to fix Christianity as it has existed for the last 2000 years; that form of Christianity has gotten too far off track from what it was originally supposed to be, so we needed to start completely over.
Sounds like reforming to the degree of erasing somethings, preserving other things, and creating new ones by way of replacing the things that was garbaged out.

Reform Reform Reform Reform. Should be your word of the day.:mischief:

Now, you could say that from a historical, outside perspective, that Mormonism branches off of Christianity in a manner similar to that of Chrristianity branching off of Judaism, but a) that's not how we see ourselves and b) we have more in common with mainstream Christianity than mainstream Christianity has with Judaism.
Only if you limit yourself of describing the evolution of monotheistic religions as being something analogous to a tree.:crazyeye:
 
Well, there are usually two missionaries, and we teach people in their homes for the most part.

There are a number of methods for finding people who want to listen - we are most known for tracting (ie going around knocking on people's doors) but by far the most effective methods are from people who have LDS friends who bring it up.

Ahh.. and the purpose of this is to get converts? You guys don't think other Christians have a chance to get into Heaven?
 
True and I agree with you on that one. But, I am saying that as long as freedoms are allowed for people to create a new church that does not adhere to Catholic dogma, then there will always be more churches claiming to be entitled as the right one. For example: Mormonism being developed in United States and being protect and allowed to grow into the religion as of today (eventhough they were persecuted many times by other established christians, but still manage to survive by finding lands in the Virgin West territory that soon became Utah as one of the many places of their settlement).

I am not talking about a religion's right to exist, I am talking about what to call it. I think you missed the point there; it is not a matter of whether a church is true, or whether it is the only true church, but whether the term "Christian" can be applied to it.

Not a Catholic by the way. Just being realistic.:D

I honestly don't find it "realistic" to say that only Catholics can be considered Christian; doing so renders the word "Christian" essentially meaningless.

Jesus claim that Peter should build the first Church. So, therefore, he is the infallible leader and the beginning of the first Church of the Christian movement.

Except it is not explicit what he meant. Most Catholics take it to mean that he meant a specific religion (and that the religion he meant was Catholicism), most other Christians take it to mean all Chrsitendom in general. Heck, he could have been talking about a building for all we can say for certain.

(An aside: why, if he was presumably speaking Aramaic, would he use a figure of speech that only makes sense in Greek? But I digress.)

Tell me, who in the beginning scribed those historical records when Christianity became triumphant as the end-all and for-all of the people of the Roman Empire? Answer: Mainly Catholics (with some exception to the rare few who were pagans and other antiquadated Christian sects that died out).

Well, if you define "Christian" to mean "Catholic", you can then say that all early Christians were in fact Catholics. But then you get into a little circular reasoning. The Catholic Church may have been the first to claim historical continuity with early Christianity; that doesn't prove their claim.

(Also, Eastern Orthodoxy makes pretty much the same claims as Catholicism, and has about the same arguments to back them up. They usually get ignored in Western discussion. So are they Christian?)

Let me ask you a question: Inorder to restore something from its so-called original state, do you have to reform in order to achieve that goal? If you want to resort by saying that restore is not changing nor fixing, then by God, you are really confusing yourself of what "reform" really means.:rolleyes:

Restoration, in this case, means ignoring everything that has happened since it got off track and restarting it from that point.

Sounds like reforming to the degree of erasing somethings, preserving other things, and creating new ones in replacing the things that was garbaged out.

Reform Reform Reform Reform. Should be your word of the day.:mischief:

Well, we don't really see ourselves as fixing Christian doctrine and practice as it now exists; we base it on revelation, and don't take what already exists in maninstream Christianity as a starting point.

(Now, religious scholars may disagree, but I am talking about how we see ourselves, not how outsiders see us.)

Only if you limit yourself of describing the evolution of monotheistic religions as being something analogous to a tree.:crazyeye:

It's a figure of speech.

At any rate, I cannot understand a word of what you are saying and really feel no need to explain why I consider myself a Christian to someone who is using such an . . . unusual definition in the first place.

In fact, from now on I suggest that every time you want to use the word "Christian", you just say "Catholic" instead. It will make things more clear.
 
I am not talking about a religion's right to exist, I am talking about what to call it. I think you missed the point there; it is not a matter of whether a church is true, or whether it is the only true church, but whether the term "Christian" can be applied to it.
I have not missed the point since you have already overgrossed me into the position of you not having me into your point.:crazyeye: :hmm:



I honestly don't find it "realistic" to say that only Catholics can be considered Christian; doing so renders the word "Christian" essentially meaningless.
Not meaningless but simply just an accurate one. That is, Catholics are the first and last, and the rest being the carbon copy of the original.

Except it is not explicit what he meant. Most Catholics take it to mean that he meant a specific religion (and that the religion he meant was Catholicism), most other Christians take it to mean all Chrsitendom in general. Heck, he could have been talking about a building for all we can say for certain.
Can't see woods for the trees, huh? I wonder if Peter is in the book of Mormons?

(An aside: why, if he was presumably speaking Aramaic, would he use a figure of speech that only makes sense in Greek? But I digress.)
I don't get it. What?!

Well, if you define "Christian" to mean "Catholic", you can then say that all early Christians were in fact Catholics.
I didn't say "all" early Christians are Catholics.

But then you get into a little circular reasoning. The Catholic Church may have been the first to claim historical continuity with early Christianity; that doesn't prove their claim.
No. All it does prove is that they have the claim first of being the first.

That's that my Mormon friend.:mischief:

(Also, Eastern Orthodoxy makes pretty much the same claims as Catholicism, and has about the same arguments to back them up. They usually get ignored in Western discussion. So are they Christian?)
I am not fully aware of this claim. Better bring this to Plotinus* on this matter since I would not be suprise to see him have a better say on this subject.


* (not the historical one but the dude who we converse with time to time in CFC:lol: )

Restoration, in this case, means ignoring everything that has happened since it got off track and restarting it from that point.
Feel free to repeat yourself.:rolleyes:

Well, we don't really see ourselves as fixing Christian doctrine and practice as it now exists; we base it on revelation, and don't take what already exists in maninstream Christianity as a starting point.
So, your revelation is a reformation. That is how I see it.

(Now, religious scholars may disagree, but I am talking about how we see ourselves, not how outsiders see us.)
Interesting.

It's a figure of speech.
I know. And it does not say anything substantial.:lol:

At any rate, I cannot understand a word of what you are saying and really feel no need to explain why I consider myself a Christian to someone who is using such an . . . unusual definition in the first place.
Nah. Just call me unusual and then say - "that's that."

In fact, from now on I suggest that every time you want to use the word "Christian", you just say "Catholic" instead. It will make things more clear.
Nah. That would be unconventional and undemocratic for some people's ears.:D
 
Drinking alcohol is not in and of itself necessarily bad; except that in this case we have been specifically commanded not to. The revelation now known as the Word of Wisdom was, when given to Joseph Smith, only a guideline; later prophets (during the second half of the 19th Century I think) revealed that it was now binding on members of the Church. Thus, it was acceptable for Jesus to drink alcohol, or for those who are not LDS to do it now, in moderation.
 
The ones on TV?

I think they are a little bit cheesy, but they do a surprisingly good job of spreading "brand awareness".

If (less likely) you mean "Mormon Ads", the little graphics that appear in the New Era (the official magazine for youth 12-18) then I must say I prefer this version (the source of that bizarre "ghost telephone" picture I had some time ago).
 
Drinking alcohol is not in and of itself necessarily bad; except that in this case we have been specifically commanded not to. The revelation now known as the Word of Wisdom was, when given to Joseph Smith, only a guideline; later prophets (during the second half of the 19th Century I think) revealed that it was now binding on members of the Church. Thus, it was acceptable for Jesus to drink alcohol, or for those who are not LDS to do it now, in moderation.
So wait, there are Prophets other then Joseph?

BTW, is it acceptable to call Joseph, Joe? How about Joey?
 
Every president of the Church from Joseph Smith onwards has been called a prophet, as well as the entire Quorum of Twelve Apostles.
Do they add like gospels and stuff?
 
Do they add like gospels and stuff?

Gospels, no, given that we consider "gospel" to mean primarily the Atonement of Christ and use it secondarily to refer to the sum total of what God has revealed. However, several sections of our scripture come from prophets after Joseph Smith (the most recent in 1978, although there is talk that the Family Proclamation, released in 1995, may be canonized).
 
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