Ask A Protestant Christian II

[kochman]

Y'know, I've never seen somebody try to justify intellectual laziness with actual laziness before. It's almost refreshing in its honesty.

Thank you. I just believe there are things beyond our understanding, and that you can go crazy trying to understand them.

If God is all-loving, it stands to reason that he would not allow to exist a cosmic entity devoted purely to ruining his creation. If he is all-powerful, it stands to reason that he could enforce his will absolutely. Therefore, there is no such thing as Satan and various churches postulate his existence to control the masses and "explain" human failings.

Again, I try to accept that I don't understand His plan. You're taking the human approach to something that isn't human.

Ah! See, that's a reasonable answer, imo. If I worshiped the Creator, when presented with the moral paradox of God ordering the murder of infants, I would reply: in the specific case of Canaan, that event was a myth (the Hebrews did not conquer Canaan, they were Canaanites), and there's no evidence that God actually ordered any specific genocide described in later texts.

There's no evidence that God ordered a priest to order soldiers to murder babies. Just because the OT claims that it happened, it doesn't mean that it happened. And, for that reason, there's no reason to justify it. Rulers have been justifying evil for thousands of years by claiming that they had the gods' blessing.

I'm often surprised at the moral contortions by the non-literalists to justify God-ordered human sacrifices, when there's no more reason to believe that God ordered those human sacrifices than He flooded the world.

As you say, the God of Jesus is very different from the God in the OT. Instead of apologising for the OT god, it's more obvious (imo) to suggest that the God of the OT was not presented factually.

I have mixed feelings about the OT.

Then, to paraphrase Eddie Izzard, why didn't he just reach down from heaven in 1933 and flick Hitler's head off? Twelve years of genocide followed by suicide isn't what I would understand as a particularly swift or divine retribution.

Well, the Holocaust was actually prophesied, in Daniel mainly, as a result of the Jews rejecting the Messiah... right down to the shaved heads, the diaspora, etc.

 

[timtofly]

So you have effectively said that God is the equivalent to a murderous dictator who also "loves" his people.

I never said that God did it. I said is was a heck of a way. Hitler shook his fist at God. God said I told you so. Hitler tried to eradicate the Jews. Britain Allowed the Jews to form a state. Mankind is capable to making messes and cleaning them up. Now you say that the Palestinians got the raw end of the deal. So did 1000's of Americans when terrorist surged into Iraq, when their dictator was removed. Life is not fair, should we expect anything else, if we refuse to allow there to be a God?

That was a cool movie.

 

[Traitorfish]

Hitler shook his fist at God.

What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and the reproduction of our race ... so that our people may mature for the fulfilment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe. ... Peoples that bastardize themselves, or let themselves be bastardized, sin against the will of eternal Providence.

So, no.

 

[Arakhor]

Well, the Holocaust was actually prophesied, in Daniel mainly, as a result of the Jews rejecting the Messiah... right down to the shaved heads, the diaspora, etc.

Given that the OT existed in oral tradition only until the Exile, writing down a prophecy somewhat after the fact is not particularly impressive.

 

[Flying Pig]

Well, the Holocaust was actually prophesied, in Daniel mainly, as a result of the Jews rejecting the Messiah... right down to the shaved heads, the diaspora, etc.

...please tell me you didn't just give the Holocaust divine backing? I'm afraid that the problem with those philosophies is that they're vague enough that given enough time something's bound to come up to match them; the Muslim equivalent of Jesus came back in the late 1800s but people promptly stopped believing in him when Kitchener handed him his proverbial.

 

[Agent Cooper]

1) Are you a Protestant? If so, what denomination or basic belief structure do you follow? If not, you are posting in the wrong thread.
2) Can you be more specific about science/religion? The basic answer is, science is great! There are things that science cannot explain.

1) No. I doubt there exists a term or moniker describing some one with my beliefs, that covers it. Spiritual minded atheist perhaps or something in that ballpark.

2) Totally agree. I was thinking more... do you consider science and religion to basically be 2 sides of the same coin - making theories/anecdotes of, observations of etc. of essentially the same universe? Or is God and the spiritual aspects of existence beyond approach by science no matter how much scientific research stretches out and evolves?

Science is a great way to explore God's creation...

At some level that makes sense...

...It is miserable when used to figure out God.

Not sure I get this. What scientific disciplines adhere to the objective of figuring out God? That doesn't seem to be the premise of any scientific studies I've ever heard of.

 

[kochman]

Given that the OT existed in oral tradition only until the Exile, writing down a prophecy somewhat after the fact is not particularly impressive.

Uh, the Holocaust occured well after the Exile... and, just because it was oral doesn't disprove that the prophesies that had already come true weren't prophesied in advance. It does make it more questionable... but the shaved heads of the Holocaust!

...please tell me you didn't just give the Holocaust divine backing? I'm afraid that the problem with those philosophies is that they're vague enough that given enough time something's bound to come up to match them; the Muslim equivalent of Jesus came back in the late 1800s but people promptly stopped believing in him when Kitchener handed him his proverbial.

It was prophesied, as actions by men upon other men. God didn't tell Hitler to kill the Jews!

1) No. I doubt there exists a term or moniker describing some one with my beliefs, that covers it. Spiritual minded atheist perhaps or something in that ballpark.

OK, well, it is ask a protestant... not trying to be a jerk, but just reminding you. It could confuse a casual reader in regards to Protestantism to see your answers without some kind of disclaimer.

2) Totally agree. I was thinking more... do you consider science and religion to basically be 2 sides of the same coin - making theories/anecdotes of, observations of etc. of essentially the same universe? Or is God and the spiritual aspects of existence beyond approach by science no matter how much scientific research stretches out and evolves?

Somethings are definitely beyond our current understanding, and I believe some things will never be within our understanding...

Not sure I get this. What scientific disciplines adhere to the objective of figuring out God? That doesn't seem to be the premise of any scientific studies I've ever heard of.

I am just referring to when people say, well, the earth is older than X amount of years, science tells us this, therefore the Bible is a crock of lies... Or the idea that if you can't prove the existence of God, He doesn't exist (Soviet propaganda for example)...

In general, Science is something to help us put order into this amazing universe created by God. It is quite helpful, and to me, the totally complicated nature of the universe is proof of intelligent design.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I heard recently from a very devout Christian who stated that Jesus, not the Bible, is "the word". It's Jesus who is to be taken literally, not necessarily the Bible which is the book about "the word".

Have you heard of this interpretation, and what is your take on it?

 

[classical_hero]

So, it's your belief that the Christian God actually does sometimes order his priests to order their soldiers to commit genocide? And that these commandments from the priests shouldn't infringe upon the "natural law" men have written on their hearts, because God is the source of that natural law?

And that the Aztec priests "should have known" that what they were doing was wrong, but that the Israelite soldiers who were stabbing babies "should have known" that they were doing the right thing, and not experienced problems with their conscience?

Well how are they going to take care of the children since their parents are dead? You do have to think of the logistics of once you are at war how can they afford to put mouths to feed and people that are generally unproductive and at any time when they are stronger to plot an attack to get revenge? The blood of the children are on their parents hand due to their actions they took. They were given plenty of warning to stop their attacks on the Israelis and they did not stop the attacks so when judgement came upon the nation that were attacking, they had no excuses. So once the nation of Israel went to war against those nations that had for centuries been killing and enslaving many Israelis, there were only a few option left for them to do. hey could do nothing and allow the attacks. But that is not an option, so they attacked the nations that were attacking them and they killed the adults, leaving children alive, but now due to the cost of war they cannot afford to keep the children with them, since the don't have enough resources to feed them, so they have to do something about them. So if they leave them alone in the desert, is that any worse than just killing them straight away, or is it more merciful for Israel just to allow the children to die a slow painful death?

 

[kochman]

I heard recently from a very devout Christian who stated that Jesus, not the Bible, is "the word". It's Jesus who is to be taken literally, not necessarily the Bible which is the book about "the word".

Have you heard of this interpretation, and what is your take on it?

This is pretty much how I look at it... much of the Bible may have been tainted over the centuries... too hard to say what was or wasn't...

In the end, the base message is clear... and that is the teachings of Christ. Hard as h-e-double hockey sticks to live up to!

 

[Traitorfish]

It was prophesied, as actions by men upon other men. God didn't tell Hitler to kill the Jews!

Hitler said that he did, and God certainly didn't turn up to contradict him.

 

[kochman]

Hitler said that he did, and God certainly didn't turn up to contradict him.

Hitler was in the midst of creating a new religion where he was the diety...

Anyhow, it's not God's job to show up and smite people anytime they claim they are inspired by God... that's just ridiculous to think that it is.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Hitler was in the midst of creating a new religion where he was the diety...

Source? Or is this just another version of the "no true Scotsman" argument?

 

[Traitorfish]

Hitler was in the midst of creating a new religion where he was the diety...

That is complete nonsense.

Anyhow, it's not God's job to show up and smite people anytime they claim they are inspired by God... that's just ridiculous to think that it is.

So Jesus could have been a false prophet? After all, if God doesn't step in to get of such people...

 

[Ajidica]

That is complete nonsense.

The closest I can find to Hitler 'creating a new religion' is some of the Nazi's attempts to inject Lutheranism with some Aryan Superiority stuff like the 'white Jesus' and so on. Not sure if that counts.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

What I understand is that God just wanted Hitler to get a glass of juice and Hitler simply misheard.

Easy mistake to make.

 

[Traitorfish]

The closest I can find to Hitler 'creating a new religion' is some of the Nazi's attempts to inject Lutheranism with some Aryan Superiority stuff like the 'white Jesus' and so on. Not sure if that counts.

Honestly, the whole concept of a "Nazi religion" is ridiculously overblown. The party itself was essentially non-denominational Christian, pandering to both the Lutheran and Catholic communities which made up the bulk of Germany society, which isn't even a particularly broad range within the terms of Christianity. If it was distinguished in these terms from the other far-right parties, its insofar as it contained a limited space for various esoteric (although invariably theistic) sects, and even that is given far more attention that it really deserves because it happens that a few senior Nazis, most notably Hess and Himmler, dabbled in the area- and the fact that those circles related to Hess were ruthlessly suppressed after his 1941 defection should tell us something about how integral they actually were to the regime.

 

[Agent Cooper]

From the inner circle of the Third Reich top nazis, Himmler seems to be the one most infused with convictions that perhaps could be described as 'religious' in nature. But from what I can gather, his views didn't really revolve around a deity in the tradition of the Abrahamic religions, but more around himself as the centre of worship. Personally, I don't really connect Nazi Germany with any established religions or attempts to establish their own.

 

[kochman]

That is complete nonsense.

No, it isn't.

So Jesus could have been a false prophet? After all, if God doesn't step in to get of such people...

No, Jesus could not have been a false prophet. I am a Christian... if I believed He was a false prophet, I could not be a Christian. This is "Ask a Protestant", not, saying anything to a Protestant regardless of how ridiculous it is.

The closest I can find to Hitler 'creating a new religion' is some of the Nazi's attempts to inject Lutheranism with some Aryan Superiority stuff like the 'white Jesus' and so on. Not sure if that counts.

Look deeper. They were ANTI-Christian in the inner circle.

Honestly, the whole concept of a "Nazi religion" is ridiculously overblown. The party itself was essentially non-denominational Christian, pandering to both the Lutheran and Catholic communities which made up the bulk of Germany society, which isn't even a particularly broad range within the terms of Christianity. If it was distinguished in these terms from the other far-right parties, its insofar as it contained a limited space for various esoteric (although invariably theistic) sects, and even that is given far more attention that it really deserves because it happens that a few senior Nazis, most notably Hess and Himmler, dabbled in the area- and the fact that those circles related to Hess were ruthlessly suppressed after his 1941 defection should tell us something about how integral they actually were to the regime.

The Nazi Party wasn't non-Denominational Christian... jeez. It had members who were claiming to be of the Christian faith, sure, but it was not founded on a religious basis AT ALL. That's something communists say.

From the inner circle of the Third Reich top nazis, Himmler seems to be the one most infused with convictions that perhaps could be described as 'religious' in nature. But from what I can gather, his views didn't really revolve around a deity in the tradition of the Abrahamic religions, but more around himself as the centre of worship. Personally, I don't really connect Nazi Germany with any established religions or attempts to establish their own.

The occult dealings of the top of the 3rd Reich is pretty well documented (books, documentaries, etc). Himmler was essentially the architect of it, and he would've been the high priest basically... That stuff was all in the early phases though, and obviously insane...
The party was not at all affiliated with Christian churches though, as was suggested before your post...

 

[Traitorfish]

No, Jesus could not have been a false prophet. I am a Christian... if I believed He was a false prophet, I could not be a Christian. This is "Ask a Protestant", not, saying anything to a Protestant regardless of how ridiculous it is.

It was a real question. If god makes no moves to validate or invalidate those who claim to act on his behalf, then how can you claim to be certain of the validity of any one claim? Wouldn't universal scepticism be the proper response? Certain theologies could reconcile that, no bother, but yours doesn't seem to offer you any easy escape, given that you state that "He brings swift justice".

The Nazi Party wasn't non-Denominational Christian... jeez. It had members who were claiming to be of the Christian faith, sure, but it was not founded on a religious basis AT ALL.

A party doesn't have to be explicitly founded upon a religious basis to be, in practice, a party aligned with certain religious groups. The British Conservative Party has no official faith, but they were always, at least until very recently, a party of and for Protestant Christianity.

That's something communists say.