Ask a Red III

Status
Not open for further replies.
Chance, basically. The symbol originated in the small stars that the garrisons of Moscow and Petrograd during World War One wore on their hats to distinguish from other troops moving through the cities, and when they went over to the Bolsheviks they painted the stars red. You'll sometimes find some contrived attempt to attach a more detailed symbolism into it- that it represents the five continents or five social classes of Russia or the time Lenin downed a whole pint in five seconds or some equally silly thing- but mostly it stuck because it's an effective bit of symbolism.

Incidentally, I'm told that in the former Yugoslavia the red star isn't usually seen as a specifically communist symbol, but as an anti-fascist symbol. That at all true?
 
The Yanks also use stars. Coincidence? I think not.
Spoiler :
:sarcasm:


I do have to say that stars make for great emblems, althouth having every moderately successful club in Eastern Europe be called either 'Star', 'Dynamo' or 'CSKA' is a bit monotonous.
 
A good question to ask I think: Why do you have less patience for fascistoids than for example Ayn-Rand types?
 
Well honest people with some integrity are always nice. I've had some great discussions and even formed friendships on both sides, though never as far as Ayn Rand-ideologists.
It's just that in your FAQ you write that you have little patience for them.
And I see this pattern all over the left political spectrum. So much focus is put on an margianalized political force that has probably learned from their mistakes at least a little bit while much less effort is put on those corrupted souls who see only themselves and their freedom as relevant.

Not that all as you call them "galtists" are extreme egomaniacs but Ayn Rand certainly was a mad woman who proclaimed that a certain serial killer was a wonderfull being for going to the ultimate of his own freedom and doing what he liked the most, killing people.

The problem being that it's not the fascists who run the large corporations or lobby the government.

edit: Screw that I was incorrect about the statues. But point still stands.
 
What I have little patience for are people who come here to proclaim in shrill voices the righteousness of freedom and democracy and the permanent fallibility of communism. Such people only tolerate "freedom of speech" and ideas that don't seriously threaten their system of privilege.

What I say I prefer a fascist to a Randoid walletarian, what I mean is that I find a fascist (an honest fascist, not a white supremacist fool who slaps the label onto Nazism or its kin) to be far more interesting than some selfish and emasculated man-child, taking the Law of the Jungle to its absolute conclusion, and more often than not they are not one of the lions anyway. Fascism derives from many of the same origins as Marx, but is very interesting to Marxists because they have taken similar tools and reached a completely opposite conclusion to ours: that the collective is supreme and the individual irrelevant; that the conflicts of history are something to be desired; and that liberal freedoms restrict our ability to realize our true potential. So while Fascism arose as a right-wing attempt to grapple with the social chaos created by industrialization, and the truth which it had laid bare for us, Randian walletarians (I call them that because that's what they're concerned about, not "liberty," since libertarian is a properly left-wing term) are a late and inglorious reaction against the decaying facade of capitalist privilege, a last attempt by a dying society to take hold of the political economy inexorably slipping through its fingers.
 
Alright.


What is your thought on the many reds and quasi-reds/associated terms that are so much more concerned with fascists than those who hold the maxims of the jungle / or worse in high regard?

Let's stop mixing in terms from now on and just call them neoliberals for the simplification of things regardless of if its a correct term to use or not.

Let me rephrase this.
Why is it so much more accepted to beat a fascist skin head than to beat up say a corrupt bankster who is missappropriating investments and over-extending peoples savings in such a way that it leads to a crisis where the people through the government bail the same one out.
 
What I have little patience for are people who come here to proclaim in shrill voices the righteousness of freedom and democracy and the permanent fallibility of communism. Such people only tolerate "freedom of speech" and ideas that don't seriously threaten their system of privilege.

What I say I prefer a fascist to a Randoid walletarian, what I mean is that I find a fascist (an honest fascist, not a white supremacist fool who slaps the label onto Nazism or its kin) to be far more interesting than some selfish and emasculated man-child, taking the Law of the Jungle to its absolute conclusion, and more often than not they are not one of the lions anyway. Fascism derives from many of the same origins as Marx, but is very interesting to Marxists because they have taken similar tools and reached a completely opposite conclusion to ours: that the collective is supreme and the individual irrelevant; that the conflicts of history are something to be desired; and that liberal freedoms restrict our ability to realize our true potential. So while Fascism arose as a right-wing attempt to grapple with the social chaos created by industrialization, and the truth which it had laid bare for us, Randian walletarians (I call them that because that's what they're concerned about, not "liberty," since libertarian is a properly left-wing term) are a late and inglorious reaction against the decaying facade of capitalist privilege, a last attempt by a dying society to take hold of the political economy inexorably slipping through its fingers.
I knew this is what you meant, but I'm really glad you so eloquently articulated it.
 
Let me rephrase this.
Why is it so much more accepted to beat a fascist skin head than to beat up say a corrupt bankster who is missappropriating investments and over-extending peoples savings in such a way that it leads to a crisis where the people through the government bail the same one out.

One is a plutocrat, one is not. Our culture, by necessity to support itself, glorifies one and disdains the other. Remember that the true fascist is against the very idea of the individual, which our liberal society holds to be supreme.
 
@Hydro
Yeah I thought so to. But I am throughoutfully sick of the constant use of "fascist" in any terminology where the leftist (specifically socialist oriantated leftist) wants to spice up his criticism of the person or ideology or business.

There are worse and more frightening things than that which hold more power today.

@Cheezy
So you are saying that the neoliberals have succeeded in twisting the self-image and world-view of not only the ordinary citizen but those supposedly their enemies?
 
Yeah I thought so to. But I am throughoutfully sick of the constant use of "fascist" in any terminology where the leftist (specifically socialist oriantated leftist) wants to spice up his criticism of the person or ideology or business.

There are worse and more frightening things than that which hold more power today.

Have no fear, there are no such people in this thread. You need not venture far to find Traitorfish decrying the similar use of the word "anarchist" to mean anyone, or indeed to represent some sort of mystical force, which causes or perpetrates violence in fits of childlike and emotional angst in the course of public protest; or indeed, as a word used to describe such people who so ridiculously think that such a practice is their "right" or "freedom" like it was written in the Constitution or something.

@Cheezy
So you are saying that the neoliberals have succeeded in twisting the self-image and world-view of not only the ordinary citizen but those supposedly their enemies?

Not merely neoliberals, but the plutocratic class in general, and the culture that worships them. This predates neoliberalism, back to the days of "original" liberalism. Besides, remember that the fascist is as much their enemy as the communist.
 
We made the distinction of what neoliberal was supposed to mean. It does not in this case mean prvate ownership or a capitalist. I'm not suggesting you meant that, I'm just clarifying my point. It also doesn't include your general autocrat or venetian plutocrat.

All of them in being only monarchs, capitalists or slave owners for that matter of fact were so because the oppurtunity presented itself. Most still had morals and weren't totally opposed to progressive change.


What I am talking about today is the small core (not necessarily interconected) of ideologically motivated, greedy, corrupt people bent on the destruction of the collective society and on the elevation of the selfish individual above all as a model to be followed and this is quite new in history.
Well they have a somewhat increasing following as this forum:http://forums.4aynrandfans.com/
But I doubt the majority of those know what they are talking about.


As you said in your first post. It is the last desperate attempt to justify a system by completely turning upside down what men and women of the past ever considered to be good or sound character. To me this is evident through the new left as well where the motto "be yourself, ignore everyones opinion" is taken for granted and as a good value. This is completely opposed to everything what society is. Completely opposite to the concept of relative freedom on which marxist theory is built upon.

But I was going to get into this a bit later...now you sorta pushed me.
 
We made the distinction of what neoliberal was supposed to mean. It does not in this case mean prvate ownership or a capitalist. I'm not suggesting you meant that, I'm just clarifying my point. It also doesn't include your general autocrat or venetian plutocrat.

The problem with this distinction, which I never consented to, is that neoliberal has quite a concrete definition as it is. I find it best to simply use the names for things that exist, rather than try to invent new ones to recategorize things which already have been adequately categorized. Sometimes things just need to stay complicated.

If you feel the need to lump them in a single category, then move to the next level up in their ideological taxonomy: they are capitalists or proponents of capitalism, for that is a goal they all share.

All of them in being only monarchs, capitalists or slave owners for that matter of fact were so because the oppurtunity presented itself. Most still had morals and weren't totally opposed to progressive change.

They certainly were opposed to change. They had no concept of "progress" as a positive force as we do today; indeed, that notion is a product of Whig history, inherited by Marxism, that we are progressing inexorably toward something greater than exists today. Monarchs, barons, and emperors alike viewed any social change as a challenge to the status quo which threatened the stability of the society which protected their privilege. Reactionary ideologues like neo-liberals and libertarians are nothing new.

What I am talking about today is the small core (not necessarily interconected) of ideologically motivated, greedy, corrupt people bent on the destruction of the collective society and on the elevation of the selfish individual above all as a model to be followed and this is quite new in history.
Well they have a somewhat increasing following as this forum:http://forums.4aynrandfans.com/
But I doubt the majority of those know what they are talking about.

They are angry, and their anger is whipped up and misguided by demagogues. Part of our responsibility as communists is to educate them and organize their anger into something socially progressive, rather than a defense of a system which disfavors them. And the proponents of that ideology whom the system does favor? Their days are numbered and their opinion matters not. They will never be convinced because they act in their self-interest. Of course, the proletariat acts in its self-interest as well, but their collective self-interest is directly opposed to plutocratic self-interest, and will overcome it in due time.

As you said in your first post. It is the last desperate attempt to justify a system by completely turning upside down what men and women of the past ever considered to be good or sound character. To me this is evident through the new left as well where the motto "be yourself, ignore everyones opinion" is taken for granted and as a good value. This is completely opposed to everything what society is. Completely opposite to the concept of relative freedom on which marxist theory is built upon.

But I was going to get into this a bit later...now you sorta pushed me.

There has been much influence by bourgeois anarchism into the left's thinking. Reactionaries love nothing more than punkers and hippies to point and sneer at, and the type of thinking you have described is the product of their creation, be it intentional or accidental.
 
Is it commonly assumed that economic policies of the far left would be more productive than free-market-capitalism, or is it rather so that less productivity is seen as a necessary sacrifice for overall better living quality due to an improved society?
I am asking because while I have profound doubts that there is a model which is better than the soulless menace of free-market competition to increase productivity (while it may profit from different kind of tries to tame it [social market economy], I am intrigued by the latter.
 
Now when you ask "far left" are you asking the Reds specifically or just far left alternatives to Capitalism? If it's the latter, would Traitor and Cheezy have a problem if I fielded this one as well?
 
Wire in. (I've actually got half a response drafted, but I'm having a hard time answering the question as he asked it, rather than just hacking the question to bits and then shrugging over the carnage.)
 
Well as an anarcho-pacifist, let me presage this by saying I'm not moved with or concerned about arguments about feasibility. My belief in Anarcho-Pacifism is based on a moral imperative, and extends from there.
In other words, I myself am personally obligated to behave in an Anarcho-Pacifist manner, as is everyone else. If everyone actually behaved that way, it would be the end of civilization as we know it, which would be great.

Now, I personally believe that if this actually happened, an Anarcho-Pacifist society would be far, far more productive, because from my perspective, the defining feature of free market capitalism is violently-enforced idleness.

Not even getting into the costs of maintaining this force, the most immediate and bizzare fact of society is that we prevent people from working. Unemployment is a result of state violence.

This may seem like an extraordinary claim, but it is on the face of it, extremely true. To use a personal example, I have a skill set that I am willing to teach at well below market rates. What I do require is a place to offer this, a storefront. The recession hit commercial real estate very hard on Long Island, and there were rows upon rows of empty storefronts with "For Rent" signs in place, that attract no money to the owner of that property.

Now, in the purest economic sense, the most productive possibility is for me to use the storefront, so long as I don't damage it, because at least I am working, providing a service, and other people are receiving that service. Even if I do this for free, it's economic activity. The store owner gets nothing, but he gets nothing as it is now.

The only thing that stops me from doing that is that the storefront owner would use armed violence to remove me from the property and if I did that. He has reasons for doing so that are rational in the existing economic system, but compared to an Anarcho-Pacifist one, the net result is most certainly less productive, especially when you factor in ancillary costs of the system, on top of this enforced idleness.

The idea applies to many other things. Many people would prefer to labor in the hope of tips then to deal with enforced unemployment. But an unemployed carpenter cannot simply walk into a carpentry shop and begin helping customers. The laid off miner cannot come in to mine coal (either Cheezy or Traitorfish once posted a great poem about that example), and the factory workers cannot continue to come in and make products, even if he bought the raw material himself. I'm now in Missouri and there is endless arable land out here, but it is all tied up in ownership. The homeless man cannot shelter himself in unused houses, apartments, or rooms. He'd be driven from the premises. But all of this would be more productive then enforced idleness.

Now, as I said before there are many reasonable reasons property owners do this, and it makes an individual sense. These mainly pertain with earning money, which primarily exists as a way to earn the recognition and enforcement of your property claims by the state, against the property claims of others.

Contrary to popular opinion, the origin of the state lies in the use of armed force by one party to achieve it's own desires and enforce it's property claims. In then generalized these property claims, and took on other functions and methods in an effort to legitimize and reduce the cost of enforcing it's claims, and has always reformed by groups asserting new property claims.

From purely cold, economic position, the existence of the state (and other perpetrators of violence) and it's enforcement of property claims has always been a detriment to productivity, and continues to force down productivity in order to ensure their own position.
 
I am fine with whatever alternative to free-market capitalism one chooses to entertain, as long as they can be attributed to the left political spectrum. I am just interested if and on what grounds one may think that there are more efficient economic models, or if this question is only of secondary relevance.

For context: What inspired me to ask this question is the story of some tropic island, which belongs to the Brits, but has self-governance. I sadly don't recall its name, but it is supposed to inhabit the most happy society in the world. And tellingly, that it is not because of its economic strength or wealth, or ethnic homogeneity or whatever (a variety of languages are spoken), but because the society is build upon caring for the community and fulfilling yourself as a part of this community. People know each other and care for each other and are contend with a relatively low standard of living, as personal relations instead of wealth are en vogue.
They don't even get very old, with a life expectancy of 65. Yet, so it is claimed, they are way more happy than people in rich countries.
I for a long time thought for myself that the most inherent problem of our modern societies is that the focus in how to structure them is on economic growth rather than a society that is most potent to create a good life. We as a society totally disregard the negligible actual gain in happiness many material goods give us when compared to a social surrounding that makes us secure and loved. In fact, those material goods seem to call for a society that is founded on insecurity and rivalry. You spend your time subduing yourself to an emotional distressing environment - the job market - and for what? Toys? Material superfluousness?
And when I think about that, I am wondering if the actual change we as societies need really should be founded on material gain (which is closely related to productivity, so that is why I asked for that) or if rather it should be founded on emotional gain? Meaning, on a kind of economic system which provides material essentials like heating, food, power, clothing, a functional infrastructure, medicine etc while at the same time setting the conditions so life can prosper as we are naturally wired to really enjoy it.

Part of that is probably that people used to think that when you focus on economic growth life will only get better. And overall, it actually kind of did. But now it appears that this stipulation was foolish in its optimism, that we are stuck in a system that favors the accumulation of wealth over actual living quality.
 
@ParkCungHee
I see what you mean, and am in agreement with your analysis in principle. Though I am unsure if your focus on property doesn't mean to obscure realty to some degree. But it seems plausible so say that property has the essential role.
I am surprised how openly you declare your disregard for feasibility though. Shouldn't public policy be based on its actual consequences rather than moral notions (while those notions should be used to judge those consequences)? I at least like to think so. And as much as I find your moral point of view likable, without the assumption of feasibility, I don't see how it justifies a political stance. But a at least in principle feasible political stance is what I am looking for her.
 
They are angry, and their anger is whipped up and misguided by demagogues. Part of our responsibility as communists is to educate them and organize their anger into something socially progressive, rather than a defense of a system which disfavors them. And the proponents of that ideology whom the system does favor? Their days are numbered and their opinion matters not. They will never be convinced because they act in their self-interest. Of course, the proletariat acts in its self-interest as well, but their collective self-interest is directly opposed to plutocratic self-interest, and will overcome it in due time.
Firstly let me congratulate you for correctly pointing out that fascism is an enemy of liberalism as much as it is from communism, and that in fact it draws much of its criticisms of liberalism from the same stuff as communism. I have read many times by Reds, including on CFC, that "fascism is liberalism/capitalism without velvet gloves". Of course that's nonsense, but nonetheless repeated every now and then.

Now for the question. The above quote (and some other segments by you on this thread) manifest a belief in the inevitability of communism. Do you really belive in that? It's my understanding that most present communists have abandoned this particular point of marxist thought, not only because of the events of the 20th Century but also because of the rather devastating criticism that historicism suffered from Popper et al. (which I assume you're familiar with). So do you believe in Laws of History and all that?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom