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Well, the John Lewis Partnership, a major British workers retail cooperative, began as a single London department store in 1905, was cooperativised in 1920, and now consists of 28 department stores and 223 branches of the Waitrose supermarket, so there must be something to it. :mischief:
I won't deny it, I just have trouble understanding it. Take a really dumbed down example:

Suppose I have an enterprise that consists of a department store with 100 workers. It has an annual turnover of 55 million and makes me a yearly profit of 5 million.

Now, suppose there is an opportunity to spend 25 million on opening an identical department store. That would a be a very sweet deal by any standard, as my initial investment would pay for itself in 5 years, after which I would make a yearly profit of 10 million.

However, if that company was jointly owned by those 100 workers, there would be absolutely no point in doing so. They would have to set aside 250 000 each, only to arrive at a situation where instead of sharing 5 million between 100 people, they need to share 10 million between 200. No return at all.
There would be a point in this if they could somehow increase the "efficiency" of another store. But even with a huge leap in productivity... say, similar profit and turnover for second store with just 50 additional people, it would take 38 years before their initial investment would pay for itself...and incidentally, this would mean they´d be "indirectly" exploiting the people working in second store, who actually make 2 times as much money as they do.

So where is the catch?
 
This may have been asked before, and forgive/correct me if this is the case, but anyways...

What are the best examples of the particular communist/socialist ideology which you subscribe to working and in motion in the past? If there are any at all.
 
Can I be approved to answer questions? :sarcasm:

Seriously though, I have a couple:

1. Why are anarcho-communists or similar small-government communists prone to make a big deal about someone calling the Soviet Union or the PRC "Communist", especially when its not even a debate on what communism is? Its the de facto usage, so why do you all care so much?

2. What does communism do for those who just don't work? Do they still get what they need? What about those who only give half of their ability? Do they get just as much as anyone else? Or is there a different system than that?
 
I won't deny it, I just have trouble understanding it. Take a really dumbed down example:

Suppose I have an enterprise that consists of a department store with 100 workers. It has an annual turnover of 55 million and makes me a yearly profit of 5 million.

Now, suppose there is an opportunity to spend 25 million on opening an identical department store. That would a be a very sweet deal by any standard, as my initial investment would pay for itself in 5 years, after which I would make a yearly profit of 10 million.

However, if that company was jointly owned by those 100 workers, there would be absolutely no point in doing so. They would have to set aside 250 000 each, only to arrive at a situation where instead of sharing 5 million between 100 people, they need to share 10 million between 200. No return at all.
There would be a point in this if they could somehow increase the "efficiency" of another store. But even with a huge leap in productivity... say, similar profit and turnover for second store with just 50 additional people, it would take 38 years before their initial investment would pay for itself...and incidentally, this would mean they´d be "indirectly" exploiting the people working in second store, who actually make 2 times as much money as they do.

So where is the catch?
Well, in the case of syndicalist collectives, it's quite simply the natural conclusion of a political agenda, the overturning of Capitalism in favour of Socialism being for the good of all, and so a worth investment of a workers labour. Non-syndicalist cooperatives may not have such explicit political goals, but few cooperatives exist without a philosophical or ideological investment in cooperativism itself, and so the expansion of cooperativism would similarly be viewed as something of a moral compulsion. Also, I would imagine that collectives would not always expand in such a mitosis-like manner, but would pool resources between themselves into a collective fund, establishing or supporting the establishment of new collectives with this fund. It would also be possible for the state to fund the establishment of collectives, which I, personally, would be supportive of, although some of my more radically anarchistic fellow travellers may not be.
(I will also note that forwarding the wealth for the establishment of a new collective on the understanding that it be recouped is not exploitative, as it is not a for-profit venture, but, indeed, an act of charity; the equivalent of lending a friend £20 til payday, rather than of a bank loan.)

It may also be worth observing that many contemporary cooperatives are consumer cooperatives, and so are driven to expand by the goal of providing as effective service to member and non-member customers, and, in a less immediate sense, of increasing and encouraging more ethical business practices. While not following a syndicalist model themselves, they offer a kernel of Socialism by removing the bourgeoisie from the equation, and their retention in necessary services- such as the grocery, banking and funeral services offered in the UK- is, I would suggest, compatible with at least early or transitional Socialist societies.

1. Why are anarcho-communists or similar small-government communists prone to make a big deal about someone calling the Soviet Union or the PRC "Communist", especially when its not even a debate on what communism is? Its the de facto usage, so why do you all care so much?
Because the misuse of technical terminology in the context of a political discussion is sloppy, distorts perception, and clouds thought. In casual discussion, it may be acceptable, but in any context which demands clarity of thought and accuracy of communication, such usage is no longer proper or, for want of a better word, acceptable.
Also, we don't object as often as you think. Referring to the USSR as adhering to communist ideology is accurate, or at least, it as accurate as we can establish without delving into the minds of now-dead Party bureaucrats. It is only the description of the Soviet Union as a communist society that we object to, because this is inaccurate; it would be like calling Tudor England a "liberal democracy".

2. What does communism do for those who just don't work? Do they still get what they need? What about those who only give half of their ability? Do they get just as much as anyone else? Or is there a different system than that?
They scavenge, they beg, they do whatever they are willing to do to survive other than, presumably, work. It is not the place of the worker to support the parasite. After all, nobody ever said that socialism is nice, just that it's right. ;)

And, hey, maybe they want to be hobo, and it wouldn't befit an anarchistic little soul like myself to deny a man such liberty. I mean, he starves to death, it's his problem. :mischief:

What are the best examples of the particular communist/socialist ideology which you subscribe to working and in motion in the past? If there are any at all.
That's a tricky one for me to answer, because I envision no single model, but a gradual progression towards an end which I will freely admit I do not know well enough to describe beyond "anarcho-collectivist-ish". What I can offer, though, is the contemporary existence of worker's cooperatives, and to a lesser extent consumer's cooperatives as a basis of transition, and the Paris Commune and Anarchist Catalonia as (unfortunately rather brief) examples of more comprehensive Syndicalist/Collectivist societies.
 
Sorry if these have been asked before.

1) How might the transformation from what we have now to your favorite -ism occur most efficaciously?
  • If by incremental changes leading to a greater and greater approximation of your favorite -ism, how would incremental changes address the apparently large and systemic nature of the shift between what we have now and your favorite -ism?
  • If by a people in the streets, anarchy-spray-paint revolution type thingy, what makes you think such an occurrence is remotely likely?

2) Would your favorite -ism work out if it was the case that people are self-interested in the sense that capitalists tend to think they are? If it would, how? If it wouldn't, what specifically makes you think that people (in the aggregate) are not self-interested in the sense that capitalists tend to think they are?

3) How do you reconcile the idea that poor folks could work things out in the manner required by your favorite -ism (e.g. factory lever-puller types managing the factory) with the fact that a huge number of poor people hold views about political issues that you probably find insane and dumb (e.g. tea party members, republicans in general)? If the answer has something to do with media propaganda, please describe what system will be in place under your favorite -ism to prevent dumb people from being exploited by smart and evil people with good public relations abilities (i.e. the Glen Becks of the world).

4) What is Marx's scientific view of history? Do you believe in it?f Under what conditions would it be falsified?

5) If people are capable of managing their own affairs in the manner suggested by your favorite -ism, how did things manage to develop to how they are in the first place (i.e. why haven't we always been communist or whatever). If your answer is that technology or something similar has made it the case that the development of your favorite -ism on a large scale was not feasible, under what technological conditions do you think your favorite -ism is feasible, and what about those conditions makes it the case that they are required for the implementation of your favorite -ism?
 
How can you be a monarchist and a communist?

We can only conclude that support for monarchism + communism = bat-turd insane.

I am not a monarchist. I just like and want to be like famous women in history like Catherine de' Medici, Marie Antoinette or Queen Victoria.


:love: We can be like Jack Reed and Louise Bryant in Reds

165249__reds_l.jpg
 
I am not a monarchist. I just like and want to be like famous women in history like Catherine de' Medici, Marie Antoinette or Queen Victoria.

Bloodsuckling parasitic autocrats, all of them.

Why not good female revolutionaries like Kollantai or Luxemburg?
 
What will Communism do in regards to technology?

Labor ennobles, as I've heard before, but technology improves our quality of life and is a natural occurrence. As technology grows, fewer and fewer people need to work.

As such, we lose the need to work for our sustenance; the machines produce everything just about, meaning we can all live on the dole. Labor can no longer ennoble apart from charity work, and charity work is probably squeezed out by a) the dole, and b) machines filling everything.

Do Communists face a dilemma here? Either they must restrict technology's march, or they must allow it to run free, possibly turning us all into couch potatoes.

Now, I'll readily admit that exactly what one does with these surplus luxuries is far from certain, and really depends on the property in question- a mansion is easily re-purposed as a collective housing, a luxury sports car less so- but it's really not the crux of the issue. Just as 18th century Republicans addressed the surplus of Royal Palaces, silk pantaloons and elaborate rococo furniture once they had resolved the more pressing issue of Absolute Monarchy, so we'll address yachts and planes and stretch hummers when we are in a position to do so.

This gives birth to another question - many mansions are very beautiful due to the wealth sustaining them(the rich like to impress, after all). If they are turned into collective housing, what will keep them beautiful?

Perhaps it would be wiser to turn them into museums or some such, but that gives the question of who will still maintain them - some sort of government agency perhaps?

The left generally appreciate cultural wealth as much as the monetary wealth, so what will be done to protect large estates, which often are cultural masterpieces?

Y'know, that's actually why I became a Socialist. ;)

I've remained capitalist for the time being after asking the same question due to the fact/idea that people can indeed move themselves up, thus justifying inequalities... for now. :p

One technological revolution after another, however, will eventually dismantle the labor system as we know it, making any system indefensible even by my standards. Techno-communism(as I'll call it) will probably be the best, most easily-defensible form; labor and consumption are obsolete due to machinery, and anarchism is also easily implemented due to less need for state protection of rights since most people have grown progressive-minded, and e-democracy also becomes super-viable.
 
Its the de facto usage, so why do you all care so much?

Just because the public uses it in that way does not mean it is correct. What people think the word "theory" means and then trying to use this meaning in a scientific context, as opposed to the specific scientific meaning of the word, is particularly bothering to me.

What will Communism do in regards to technology?

Labor ennobles, as I've heard before, but technology improves our quality of life and is a natural occurrence. As technology grows, fewer and fewer people need to work.

As such, we lose the need to work for our sustenance; the machines produce everything just about, meaning we can all live on the dole. Labor can no longer ennoble apart from charity work, and charity work is probably squeezed out by a) the dole, and b) machines filling everything.

There aren't any jobs other than manual labor?
 
Sorry if these have been asked before.

1) How might the transformation from what we have now to your favorite -ism occur most efficaciously?
  • If by incremental changes leading to a greater and greater approximation of your favorite -ism, how would incremental changes address the apparently large and systemic nature of the shift between what we have now and your favorite -ism?
  • If by a people in the streets, anarchy-spray-paint revolution type thingy, what makes you think such an occurrence is remotely likely?

I think that either is a possibility. I don't pretend to know the future. I think revolution is more effective, but incrementally (by which I presume you mean legislation through present venues) is safer. I don't think an American revolution would yield a dictatorship, but revolution in the French tradition is just not a reality these days. Too bad.

2) Would your favorite -ism work out if it was the case that people are self-interested in the sense that capitalists tend to think they are? If it would, how? If it wouldn't, what specifically makes you think that people (in the aggregate) are not self-interested in the sense that capitalists tend to think they are?

If people are as self-interested as capitalists think they are, then capitalism's fate is more sealed than even Marxists think it is. What reason is there to respect someone else's private property and other rights, if it interferes with your self-interest? Respecting private property and the laws that make our society cohesive are as "unnatural" as socialist proposals. That's just part of the Social Contract.

3) How do you reconcile the idea that poor folks could work things out in the manner required by your favorite -ism (e.g. factory lever-puller types managing the factory) with the fact that a huge number of poor people hold views about political issues that you probably find insane and dumb (e.g. tea party members, republicans in general)? If the answer has something to do with media propaganda, please describe what system will be in place under your favorite -ism to prevent dumb people from being exploited by smart and evil people with good public relations abilities (i.e. the Glen Becks of the world).

Well with any luck, the Glenn Becks of the world will either have heart attacks and die on the spot, or rise up in some sort of stupid counterrevolution and be mercilessly put down.

4) What is Marx's scientific view of history? Do you believe in it?f Under what conditions would it be falsified?

I more or less described it in my superpost on the last page. Yes I do believe it. It could be falsified by providing a demonstrable motive force that explains the movements of history that isn't class struggle. I am sure there are others but I cannot think of them now.

I should make clear that Marx wasn't a Whig historian, he simply saw different epochs of history as being formed by class struggle in previous epochs.

5) If people are capable of managing their own affairs in the manner suggested by your favorite -ism, how did things manage to develop to how they are in the first place (i.e. why haven't we always been communist or whatever).

Essentially, white man keepin the black man down. With variable changes of cast.

If you were reading that aloud, there would be a fantastic play on words.

:love: We can be like Jack Reed and Louise Bryant in Reds

165249__reds_l.jpg

Have you ever read Ten Days That Shook the World? One of my absolute favorites.
 
I don't know if this question has been asked yet, but what kind of life could someone who would be considered a member of the middle-class in capitalism, have under the system you are proposing? (in regards to where he/she would get food, what he/she would do for entertainment, where they might work, etc)
 
There aren't any jobs other than manual labor?

Well, Communism and Socialism, from my experience, seem to focus primarily on manual labor(hammer and sickle, anyone?) rather than such things as say, retail clerks. Which makes sense; farmers harvest food and factory workers are one of the early steps in the chain of production, whereas cashiers and whatnot are just selling finished products; they aren't really producing anything.

Unlike a factory worker, hence the argument that the factory worker deserves an equal share of the production.
 
Well, Communism and Socialism, from my experience, seem to focus primarily on manual labor(hammer and sickle, anyone?) rather than such things as say, retail clerks. Which makes sense; farmers harvest food and factory workers are one of the early steps in the chain of production, whereas cashiers and whatnot are just selling finished products; they aren't really producing anything.

Unlike a factory worker, hence the argument that the factory worker deserves an equal share of the production.

The factory worker already receives a proportional share based on the work he did. If an industrialist designs a new type of ultra-strong ultra-light steel, is he not entitled to a greater share of the profit? It was his invention - it required his ingenuity. No prole could do that.

The trouble is communists seem to think manual labor is the only real type of labor. This is a petty distinction when the matter at hand ought to be focusing on removing our selfish impositions.
 
What will Communism do in regards to technology?

Labor ennobles, as I've heard before, but technology improves our quality of life and is a natural occurrence. As technology grows, fewer and fewer people need to work.

As such, we lose the need to work for our sustenance; the machines produce everything just about, meaning we can all live on the dole. Labor can no longer ennoble apart from charity work, and charity work is probably squeezed out by a) the dole, and b) machines filling everything.

Do Communists face a dilemma here? Either they must restrict technology's march, or they must allow it to run free, possibly turning us all into couch potatoes.
That assumes that the only productive endeavour in which you humans may engage is routine drudgery, which isn't at all the case- it is simply the sort that pre-dominates in our world, and is being pushed back by the advance of technology. There are many forms of labour apart from this, and many of them are better simply for being performed by a living, breathing human- teaching, for instance, or a barista in a coffee shop. Perhaps the march of technology is not a dilemma, but an opportunity- something which allow us to free ourselves from material drudgery, and focus on the greater ends of helping each other, and of attaining self-fulfilment.

Besides, there's still around five billion people who engage in back-breaking Victorian labour, so I would suggest that we'll be spending a good while elevating them to a decent standard of living before we begin to worry about the rise of the plumber-bot. ;)

This gives birth to another question - many mansions are very beautiful due to the wealth sustaining them(the rich like to impress, after all). If they are turned into collective housing, what will keep them beautiful?

Perhaps it would be wiser to turn them into museums or some such, but that gives the question of who will still maintain them - some sort of government agency perhaps?

The left generally appreciate cultural wealth as much as the monetary wealth, so what will be done to protect large estates, which often are cultural masterpieces?
Well, in Britain, at least, many of the "Grand Estates" are already under partial public management through the National Trust- unlike in the US, possession of a sprawling mansion is merely indicative of aristocratic status, not of contemporary income- and I believe that this model could be quite easily replicated elsewhere. They could also be partially re-purposed as hostels, retirement homes, or what have you, and that would be decided on an individual basis.

The McMansions of the noveua riche, though, can burn to the ground for all I care. Ghastly things. ;)

I've remained capitalist for the time being after asking the same question due to the fact/idea that people can indeed move themselves up, thus justifying inequalities... for now. :p
I suppose that might owe something to our respective backgrounds- in Britain, the "self-made man" narrative is far weaker, especially in the rather dishevelled post-industrial towns of the North and Scotland (from whence I hail), owing in part to the greater social stratification of British society, particularly the aristocratic pretensions of the British bourgeoisie. (There seems to be an odd belief among the British political class that handing our knighthoods and Lordships to wealthy businessman makes the whole farcical business somehow more inclusive, rather than simply reaffirming existing class divisions! :rolleyes:)

Well, Communism and Socialism, from my experience, seem to focus primarily on manual labor(hammer and sickle, anyone?) rather than such things as say, retail clerks. Which makes sense; farmers harvest food and factory workers are one of the early steps in the chain of production, whereas cashiers and whatnot are just selling finished products; they aren't really producing anything.

Unlike a factory worker, hence the argument that the factory worker deserves an equal share of the production.
That's simply because the bulk of labour performed in this world is manual (internationally speaking today, but, historically, in ever nation). The principles of socialism apply to an accountant or a programmer as much as to a welder or a joiner. Production, after all, doesn't mean the crafting of material goods, but the entire process by which those goods are delivered to an end consumer. Working at a store is productive in that it allows the end consumer to obtain those goods, and so it is only fair that the cashier derives a part of the wealth which the consumer invests in the goods.

Now, I will admit, there is something of an over-attachment to industry in modern Far Leftism, but that's because, in my understanding, this is the environment in which it is most established, while in the white collar work and in the service industry, people often believe that Trade Unions and the like are simply "not for them"- the former because middle class pomposity encourages them to believe themselves to be above the need for collective bargaining, the latter because the workers, rather tragically, often do not believe that they deserve it. Those are both things which we must endeavour to change.

The factory worker already receives a proportional share based on the work he did.
They receive what the industrialist is willing to give them, an altogether different thing.

If an industrialist designs a new type of ultra-strong ultra-light steel, is he not entitled to a greater share of the profit? It was his invention - it required his ingenuity. No prole could do that.
When did an industrialist ever design anything? That is the work of an engineer or a scientist, who are similarly robbed of their economic autonomy by the industrialist- or, in this day and age, by a cabal of executives, and on behalf of an impersonal array of investors.

The trouble is communists seem to think manual labor is the only real type of labor. This is a petty distinction when the matter at hand ought to be focusing on removing our selfish impositions.
No, we don't. Liebknecht was a lawyer, Maclean a schoolteacher and De Leon a journalist, and I doubt that either they or any other Socialist have ever seen such work as anything other than "real".
 
The factory worker already receives a proportional share based on the work he did. If an industrialist designs a new type of ultra-strong ultra-light steel, is he not entitled to a greater share of the profit? It was his invention - it required his ingenuity.

The trouble is communists seem to think manual labor is the only real type of labor. This is a petty distinction when the matter at hand ought to be focusing on removing our selfish impositions.

You would do good to notice the list of posters approved for answering questions in Opening Post.

No prole could do that.

I thought the worker had every capability of leaving the capitalist's employment and starting his own business? :confused:
 
Why do comunism fight religions if religions are very popular worldwide and would be kept in any democratict decision??
 
Why do comunism fight religions if religions are very popular worldwide and would be kept in any democratict decision??

I'm going to guess the answer to this. I'm going to put it in spoiler. I ask the red who answers to answer first before checking the spoiler

Spoiler :
(Me being a red) "Those countries that repressed religion aren't actually communism. Anarcho-communism and religion are compatible.


Though I do think the second sentence is correct;)
 
Why do comunism fight religions if religions are very popular worldwide and would be kept in any democratict decision??
They don't, and some are, in fact, deeply religious. Some have even been clerics themselves! What Socialists combat is reactionary institutions, whatever their nature.

(Me being a red) "Those countries that repressed religion aren't actually communism. Anarcho-communism and religion are compatible."
Most forms of socialism are compatible with religion. All that is asked is that religious institutions not throw in their lot with the forces of reaction, as most Established Churches have been historically prone to do.

In fact, aren't Cheezy and Civver both Christians? I'm sure they have a few thoughts on this subject.
 
I'm not, as of yet anyway, approved to answer, but I'll give my thoughts on two things I've seen so far.
The seeming red obsession with manual labor: The proliferation of communism began and rose up during the heavily industrial era where man was subject to hulking machines. So I see it as some sort of attachment to the early days, of when revolution seemed so close and possible, for many reds. I think it's that old aesthetic that is attractive to some, a heroic working man. I see no problem with technology though, it is in face, I believe, a liberation for that aforementioned man to pursue some work free of such, well, horrendous conditions. Thoughts here being that with capitalism, the benefits, the wealth that technology has created, is given to the industrialist of old, today's CEO, who uses it as he sees fit. However, this need not be the case. There are still positions that must be filled, free of or in conjunction with these new technologies, and the wealth could be much better spread accordingly.
As for religions, I also see no problem with them and lefty ideas. It's the power that they today exert over more than just the beliefs of individuals, finding their ways in to controlling others beyond what they teach by the book and beyond those who follow them, that's a problem. A truly secular government is what would of course be desired. Not one of equal condemnation as religious powers have had before.
 
Re: communists; what do communists think about non-communist socialists? Would you accept a socialist state in place?
 
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