Ask A Red V: The Five-Year Plan

[amadeus]

Why do you need to imprison anyone when the country itself is like a big prison?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Not the place for this debate, and we are not the people to ask.

 

[Traitorfish]

I didn't say they were pleasant places, I was combating the "zomg North Korea imprisons everyone!" trope at work, when in fact it is less (or roughly the same amount) of their population as the United States does.

The proportion of people in prison may be similar. But the number of people they send to prison is considerably higher. And when we additionally consider the reasons why North Koreans are put in prison, the initial comparison begins to seem like a trick of statistics without all that much truth to it.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

The proportion of people in prison may be similar. But the number of people they send to prison is considerably higher. And when we additionally consider the reasons why North Koreans are put in prison, the initial comparison begins to seem like a trick of statistics without all that much truth to it.

I would like to see data which reflects this phenomenon.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

I would like to see data which reflects this phenomenon.

None exist... TF is making it up.

 

[classical_hero]

I didn't say they were pleasant places, I was combating the "zomg North Korea imprisons everyone!" trope at work, when in fact it is less (or roughly the same amount) of their population as the United States does.

What they do is imprison dissent, whereas in the US there is a thing called due process. Sure the US system isn't perfect, but it is so much better than the North Korean situation. I don't think anyone has ever said that they imprison everyone, so that is a strawman situation you set up. But if it is a success as RT says, and he wants to bring such a situation to the US, then i say he is crazy for believing the propaganda coming out of there.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

I do not believe the bourgeois media propaganda on DPRK... big difference. Class difference, á la Fidel and international proletarian solidarity. That principle is inmutable and only loses me the friends I can't afford to keep.

 

[Agent327]

I'm sure Amnesty International's annual report on North Korea falls into your definition of bourgeois propaganda? https://www.amnesty.org/en/region/north-korea/report-2013

I would like to see data which reflects this phenomenon.

None exist... TF is making it up.

It's interesting how you both manage to entirely miss the point of what TF actually is saying.

Also interesting how this seems to be only a Q & A thread when unwelcome factual criticism is being made.

 

[classical_hero]

Yes, they can't see the point because they are so blinded by their idealogical views, that it has to be false criticism from the "bourgeoisie". They don't bring any evidence to show that it is false, but what do you expect.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

This is not an argument nor a criticism thread. There's a special thread for arguing about this stuff. Go there.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

I'm sure Amnesty International's annual report on North Korea falls into your definition of bourgeois propaganda? .

Why, yes. Yes I do.... Read the report yourself.

 

[Agent327]

I'll do you one better:

Systematic human rights violations remained widespread. The food crisis persisted, with chronic and widespread malnutrition still a public health concern. Millions faced continued food insecurity and remained dependent on food aid. Despite reports that one political prison camp had closed, tens of thousands remained detained in such camps where they were subjected to sustained violations of their human rights, including extrajudicial executions, forced labour and torture and other ill-treatment. There were reports of executions, including of those purged in the leadership transition. Severe restrictions on the rights to freedom of expression, association, opinion and assembly persisted. The media remained under strict control.
Background

Kim Jong-un, North Korea’s Supreme Leader following the death of his father in 2011 was elected to the newly created position of First Secretary of the Workers’ Party of Korea on 11 April and promoted to Marshal of the Korean People’s Army in July. The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (North Korea) successfully launched an Unha-3 rocket on 12 December, sending a satellite into space, after a number of failed attempts.

State media announced a prisoner amnesty in January, due to begin 1 February, marking the anniversary of the birth of the late North Korean leader Kim Jong-il; however, no information about the releases was made public.

In July, floods resulted in severe damage to housing, infrastructure and public buildings. According to government figures, at least 212,200 people were left homeless and 169 people were killed.

Food crisis

Despite reports that harvests had improved for a second year, food insecurity remained widespread. In November, the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organization and World Food Programme Crop and Food Security Mission report stated that although household food consumption had improved, “serious gaps remained between recommended and actual nutrient intake. The predominant share of the population remains food insecure”. Chronic malnutrition continued to plague most people, with several reportedly dying of starvation.

Arbitrary arrests and detention

Hundreds of thousands remained arbitrarily detained, or held for indeterminate periods without charge or trial in political prison camps and other detention facilities. Detainees faced systematic and sustained violations of their human rights, including extrajudicial executions and long hours of forced hard labour with no rest days. Torture and other ill-treatment appeared to be widespread in prison camps. Many detainees died due to forced labour in perilous conditions, including inadequate access to food or medical care.

In October, there were reports that Political Prison Camp 22 in Hoeryong, North Hamkyung province, had been closed. It was not clear when the prison camp closed and where the prisoners, estimated at between 20,000 and 50,000, had been transferred. The camp, one of five of its kind, was a total control zone where inmates were held for life, without reprieve. Many of those held in political prison camps had not committed any crime, but were related to those deemed hostile to the regime and were held as a form of collective punishment.

In response to a query from the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention, the government stated in April that Shin Sook-ja, last known to have been held with her two daughters in Political Prisoner Camp 15 at Yodok, had died of complications linked to hepatitis. They also claimed that her daughters did not want any contact with their father Oh Kil-nam, now based in the Republic of Korea. This information could not be verified and it was not clear when Shin Sook-ja died or where. The fate and whereabouts of her two daughters remained unknown.
In December, North Korea announced that it had detained Kenneth Bae, a US national of Korean origin, on charges of committing “hostile acts against the Republic”. Kenneth Bae ran a travel company that specialized in taking tourists and prospective investors to North Korea. He had entered the country on 3 November and was reportedly detained after security officials found he had a computer hard disk that they believed contained delicate information about the country.

Enforced disappearances

The authorities continued to refuse to acknowledge cases where North Korean agents carried out abductions on foreign soil of people from countries including Japan, Lebanon, the Republic of Korea and Thailand.

In July, Fujita Takashi attended a meeting of the UN’s Working Group on Enforced or Involuntary Disappearances where he raised the case of his brother Susumu, feared abducted by North Korea from Japan in February 1976.

Freedom of expression

The authorities continued to impose severe restrictions on freedoms of expression, opinion and assembly. Strict media controls were believed to have been imposed to prevent challenges to the government during its period of transition. There appeared to be no independent civil society organizations or independent political parties.

Freedom of movement

The authorities reportedly further tightened controls along the border with China and threatened individuals crossing it without permission with severe punishment on their return.

In February, 31 people who left North Korea without permission were detained by Chinese authorities. According to news reports, in March, China forcibly returned some members of this group back to North Korea where they risked detention, torture and other ill-treatment, forced labour and death.

Death penalty

Executions of political opponents were reported, but this information could not be verified.

According to unconfirmed reports received in October, Army Minister Kim Chol was executed in early 2012 for drunkenness and inappropriate behaviour during the mourning period of former leader Kim Jong-il.

International scrutiny

In October, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights stated that the “use of political prison camps, frequent public executions and severe food shortages, coupled with the extreme difficulty of gaining access, make DPRK [North Korea] singularly problematic.” For the first time, both the UN Human Rights Council and the Third Committee of the UN General Assembly passed resolutions without a vote in March and November respectively. Both expressed serious concerns at continuing reports of systematic, widespread and grave violations of civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights in North Korea.

Now pray tell, how is this "bourgeois"? Do you even know how Amnesty International works?

This is not an argument nor a criticism thread.

I see: you can argue, but factual criticism is not allowed. Which is precisely my factual criticism.

 

[potatokiosk]

Why is there a trend of Reds acting as apologists for the North Korean state even though North Korea isn't even officially Marxist anymore?

 

[classical_hero]

This is not an argument nor a criticism thread. There's a special thread for arguing about this stuff. Go there.

I asked a question and now we are discussing the answer to that question and how wrong we think the answer is.

 

[Gary Childress]

In what way is Amnesty International guilty of bourgeois propaganda? Do you mean to say that none of these things are really happening in the DPRK or do you perhaps mean to say that these things ARE happening in the DPRK but are the consequence of economic isolation and international pressure by the West and therefore not inherent to the DPRK's political system itself?

So for example, if the whole world were communist and the USA alone was holding onto capitalism by its fingernails, unable to find international markets and resources to exploit to keep the wheels of capitalism rolling, might the USA find itself in a like situation where desperation sets in and irrational political behavior takes hold? So for example perhaps the DPRK is in such a situation and would NOT be in this desperate situation if they were not isolated in such a manner?

So therefore Amnesty International is simply reinforcing the bourgeois effort to undermine the DPRK by publishing something that can be used against it by its detractors? Is that perhaps what is meant by Amnesty International's report being consistent with bourgeois propaganda?

I was once a member of Amnesty International myself but sort of let it go by the wayside for the last 15 years or so. I think AI does a wonderful job of looking out for the real victims of international politics. To me it's sort of like the Red Cross. The Red Cross was, according to my understanding, created in an apolitical context to help soldiers on every side of the front line because they understand that the soldiers are suffering not from their own design but from the forces that push and pull on entire societies. The soldiers and civilians caught in the crossfire of international relations and politics are the real victims and are human beings like us who deserve care and nurturing. I do know that AI tries to be apolitical by design. In fact I believe some years ago there was a stir when it was discovered that the FBI or some such agency was trying to infiltrate AI groups because they thought that AI had communist sympathies or some such nonsense.

So I don't think anyone should have a grudge against AI anymore than they should think poorly of the International Red Cross. They are just trying to deal with the humanitarian consequences of all the wars and rivalries that cause suffering.

EDIT: BTW, when I was with AI, the US was not excluded from their annual reports on human rights abuses. Our group would often attend vigils for victims of the death penalty, for example.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Why is there a trend of Reds acting as apologists for the North Korean state even though North Korea isn't even officially Marxist anymore?

I wish I knew. Most I know are mesmerized by the stormy rhetoric and military shows (what are commonly called "hammer and sickle socialists" ), but not all have that excuse. Others take the line that DPRK is a victim of US imperialism, and therefore our ally by default. Not supporting the leader in that case means being an imperialist, and thus all criticism is silenced. The concept of being against both things doesn't seem to register with these people who insist the world is black and white. My position on DPRK, as with Iran and others, is that I oppose the regime there, but I also oppose outside attempts to influence the course of things there. A sort of "prime directive," if you will. So while I have no love for the DPRK and do not support them as such, I realize that they are victimized and demonized by the West, which goes to great lengths to portray everything it is against as The Worst Place On Earth, all the while ignoring its own hellhole allies. If the US took an identical stance against Saudi Arabia or Colombia as it does on DPRK or Syria, then such skepticism might be less warranted. But it doesn't. And so I support DPRK in its struggle to keep Western imperialism out of its own affairs, but that support ends there. Same with Iran, for example. As I said, it eternally gets the short end of the stick, and then gets blamed for having a short stick. That's quite simply not fair, it is bullying on an international scale. And I am sworn the sworn enemy of bullies.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Why is there a trend of Reds acting as apologists for the North Korean state even though North Korea isn't even officially Marxist anymore?

Says who? Besides, read my Fidel quote. No such blockade existed against South Africa in the way the US has blockaded DPRK and Cuba...

In what way is Amnesty International guilty of bourgeois propaganda?

I read the report... not much actual data. If I quote a report with so little corroboration, I get trolled.

I'm sure AI means well, but they don't say squat about the Cuban Five.

 

[Azale]

Why is there a trend of Reds acting as apologists for the North Korean state even though North Korea isn't even officially Marxist anymore?

There isn't in the corners I frequent. Hell, even the guys at Soviet-Empire.com were more than a little queasy with the regulars in the DPRK section of the forum.

There is a healthy skepticism that grows when you begin to distrust lamestream corporate media and the neoliberal establishment in general. Sometimes you end up defending an awful regime or individual longer than you should, but that is the price you pay for healthy skepticism I guess.

 

[Gary Childress]

I read the report... not much actual data. If I quote a report with so little corroboration, I get trolled.

I'm sure AI means well, but they don't say squat about the Cuban Five.

I looked up "Cuban Five" and "Amnesty International" and found this:

Amnesty International has criticized the U.S. treatment of the Cuban Five as "unnecessarily punitive and contrary both to standards for the humane treatment of prisoners and to states’ obligation to protect family life", as the wives of René Gonzáles and Gerardo Hernández have not been allowed visas to visit their imprisoned husbands.[40] Amnesty said in early 2006 that it was "following closely the status of the ongoing appeals of the five men of numerous issues challenging the fairness of the trial which have not yet been addressed by the appeal courts."[41]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Five

EDIT: Here's a link to an AI report on the matter: http://amnesty.org/en/library/asset...9f-465a-adcc-902be3e5301c/amr510932010en.html

It looks to me like AI has about as much to say about the Cuban Five as they say about pretty much any other individual case of human rights abuse in the world. What more should they say or do?

Here's AI's report on the US for 2013:

http://amnesty.org/en/region/usa/report-2013

In fact compare the length of it to their 2013 report on the DPRK:

http://amnesty.org/en/region/north-korea/report-2013

You'll note that they seem to have a lot more to say about the US than the DPRK. In the end, when all the smoke and debris clears from all the political and ideological battles in the world isn't it nice that someone is there to care about the refugees and other victims who got caught in the crossfire? Or are some refugees deserving of their fate because, perhaps, they took the "wrong" side in the battle?

EDIT: In any case, I would think it's probably a good sign that AI is doing its job correctly when both East and West, Left and Right, pretty much equally think AI is on the "other side".

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Thank you,. Gary, for those links.