Ask an Anarchist

If you'll excuse me for going back to the discussion about credit rather than barter being the forerunner of currency - how does that work for long-distance traders, with whom you might only ever have one interaction? Those certainly operated in pre-monetary times over huge distances.
 
Yeah, it's an interesting one. If I can stick my oar in here.

I remember hearing about Nordic traders writing to each other complaining that they were owed some goods in return for stuff they'd sent. It was certainly a problem keeping track of exactly who owed what to whom. Which is why, fairly obviously, humanity found the need to invent currency.

The alternative (preliterate) mechanism was simple diffusion of goods, where one trader just never had a long distance relation, and only dealt with his immediate neighbours. Goods can still manage to travel very long distances.
 
From having read perhaps too much Icelandic literature, the value of things was measured against ells (a unit of length) of homespun wool. Even if money had already been invented, silver and gold were not that common. Kings demanded tribute in goods, just like in the Old Testament.
 
If you'll excuse me for going back to the discussion about credit rather than barter being the forerunner of currency - how does that work for long-distance traders, with whom you might only ever have one interaction? Those certainly operated in pre-monetary times over huge distances.
Presumably that depends how the long-distance traders slotted into the system of credit. Debts can be transferable, so a long-range trader can operate simply by shifting debts around in a local economy. Trade A sells a load of textiles to local Trader B, for example, who is now indebted to A; A goes to Trader C and buys a load of spices, paying for it with a transfer for the debt owed by B. (It's not as if a spice merchant is going to be buying textiles in bulk in the first place.) Now B owes C, and A is free to return home having entered into and then extricated himself from this system of local debt.

Also, as Borachio says, I don't think that early trade really was that long-distance, at a personal level. It operated largely between relatively nearby cities, and even early maritime trade was largely coastal, hopping between ports rather than ploughing straight across the sea. Other merchants might be inconvenient, but they were hardly on the moon, so we can imagine credit-relations even there.

Takhisis also makes a good point that "money", in the broad sense, doesn't have to refer to cash, but can describe standardised-ish goods, usually grain and cattle. (Pre-Meiji Japan developed a sophisticated commercial economy based around measurements of rice.) So what appears to be a "barter economy" may simply be a monetary economy without a strong emphasis on actual cash, which is in practice what most monetary economies looked like until the 19th century century, if not later.
 
What is anarchism about?
 
That's a very good question.

Anarchism is a political philosophy that advocates stateless societies often defined as self-governed voluntary institutions,[1][2][3][4] but that several authors have defined as more specific institutions based on non-hierarchical free associations.[5][6][7][8] Anarchism holds the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, or harmful.[9][10] While anti-statism is central,[11] anarchism entails opposing authority or hierarchical organisation in the conduct of human relations, including, but not limited to, the state system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

Which seems simple enough, I think. Yet there seem to be more subschools of anarchism than of any other branch of political thinking.

Here are the main ones.
 
Also, as Borachio says, I don't think that early trade really was that long-distance, at a personal level. It operated largely between relatively nearby cities, and even early maritime trade was largely coastal, hopping between ports rather than ploughing straight across the sea. Other merchants might be inconvenient, but they were hardly on the moon, so we can imagine credit-relations even there.

You certainly had people going from Lebanon to Greece and Crete as early as 1400 BC, and from Lebanon via Cyprus, Sicily and Sardinia to the Atlantic around 1000 BC. You're right that most exotic goods moved in relatively small hops, but that wasn't uniformly the case at all.

Takhisis also makes a good point that "money", in the broad sense, doesn't have to refer to cash, but can describe standardised-ish goods, usually grain and cattle. (Pre-Meiji Japan developed a sophisticated commercial economy based around measurements of rice.) So what appears to be a "barter economy" may simply be a monetary economy without a strong emphasis on actual cash, which is in practice what most monetary economies looked like until the 19th century century, if not later.

We've already had, though, the observation that such a use of 'money' doesn't actually require things to be converted into that 'money' at any stage - in other words, if your unit of accounting is 'the value of a pint of rice', you could decide that a pint of milk was worth half a pint of rice but a chicken was worth four pints of rice and exchange eight pints of milk for a chicken. So where exactly is the distinction between that and a barter economy?
 
You certainly had people going from Lebanon to Greece and Crete as early as 1400 BC, and from Lebanon via Cyprus, Sicily and Sardinia to the Atlantic around 1000 BC. You're right that most exotic goods moved in relatively small hops, but that wasn't uniformly the case at all.
You already have millennia of money by this time.


We've already had, though, the observation that such a use of 'money' doesn't actually require things to be converted into that 'money' at any stage - in other words, if your unit of accounting is 'the value of a pint of rice', you could decide that a pint of milk was worth half a pint of rice but a chicken was worth four pints of rice and exchange eight pints of milk for a chicken. So where exactly is the distinction between that and a barter economy?
Is currency trading on the London exchange part of a moneyed economy or a barter economy?

I think you've shifted the debate substantially from where a barter layer lies chronologically with if barter is a thing that existed in ancient trade. If the argument that barter occured after folks internalized a unit of account, and you're presenting a potential example of barter after folks internalized a unit of account, then sure, that's commodity barter. But it's commodity barter on top of moneyed or debt-accounting based system, and not barter leading to a money system.
 
Have any of the resident anarchists read books like Human Scale and Small is Beautiful?
 
How would communities based on social consensus avoid becoming this?
 
By arriving at a different consensus.
 
What's the role of family in an anarchist society? Do children have the same rights to non-coercion as adults?
 
You have stated that Anarchism depended on the prevention of the accumulation of power.
I took that - I think fair to say - core Anarchist aspiration as a starting point to attack Anarchism - which resulted in me being asked to abstain from this thread.

So alright, never mind my criticism - let's be more 'productive'.

What I wonder is - do you know of thoughts / theories or perhaps even school of thoughts concerned with how the accumulation of power is supposed to be prevented?

I mean I gather there is a lot of thought on how accumulated power does harm (and for what it is worth - I have quit a liking for such ideas) - but is there much thought on how to prevent the existence of such power?
 
By arriving at a different consensus.

Why would they? A Jewish democracy which serves only the Jewish People isn't very far, ethically, from a 'True Anarchist' democracy, which serves only the 'True Anarchists.'
 
Because ethics is a subjective concept.
 
Because ethics is a subjective concept.

Pithy one-liners don't pack a lot of punch when you consistently and spectacularly miss the point.
 
Well, the point I'm trying to make is that people might not necessarily want to agree with you, and that you might not necessarily want to agree with them.

Incidentally, I'm not trying to 'pack' any 'punch' into my posts.
 
Have any of the resident anarchists read books like Human Scale and Small is Beautiful?
I'm not familiar with them, although Park might be. It's probably the sort of thing I should look into; I've tended to accept the traditional syndicalist line that you just need to democratise industry, and things'll work themselves out, but the more you think about that, the harder it is to maintain.

How would communities based on social consensus avoid becoming this?
I think the issue is this concept of an impersonal collective will, the idea that it is possible to state the aspirations or interests of a group independent of any of the actual people in that group. Feiglin's "Jewish community" is ontologically prior to anything so mundane as an actual Jewish person, so it isn't necessary consult any such persons to formulate a collective will. Such a formulation hat requires, if not a state, some sort of mediatory authority, something or someone which can represents itself to the individual as the community. If people address each other directly, I don't think you can develop an impersonal collective will, because any collective will is going to be grounded in the actual process of discussion and consensus-building.

One thing you notice, when you look at a lot of stateless societies, is that communitarianism is actually quite difficult to build and maintain. It's too easy for people to bypass centres of authority, to simply act (or refuse to act) as they see fit. It requires a well-developed culture of conformity or deference to force a majority into a consensus, and such cultures don't seem to develop very readily in the absence of authorities, or at least the experience of authorities, because people have to be trained to think like that, to be trained to believe in a super-personal will.

What's the role of family in an anarchist society?
In the sense of the nuclear family, I think it would tend to fade away. The nuclear family depends on the household as the basic unity of society, and that's something that's been in decline for two hundred years. Without meaning to fall back onto economic determinism, without the need for the household, I don't think the nuclear family will persist as a norm.

In the sense of kinship more generally, I think it would probably continue to be important. One of the things that Sahlins has pointed out that, when liberal philosophers pontificate on human nature, they always seem to miss kinship, which is quite genuinely universal in human societies. An anarchist society might be expected to supersede this in a glorious blaze of individualism, but I think that such an expectation probably just reflects the alienation of Western anarchists.

Do children have the same rights to non-coercion as adults?
That's a good question, and not one I have a very good answer to. The usual arguments against coercion assumes a certain baseline of rationality or self-control which isn't a given- it won't be found in small children, or in some mentally disabled people. (I think children achieve a capacity for self-government quicker than we give them credit, in part because our culture does a poor job of either fostering or recognising self-government.) And I'm not entirely sure how we'd resolve that one, beyond saying that we should aspire to respect their rationality as much as possible, and endeavour to employ coercion as little as possible. And how much is "as possible"? And does this, by analogy, imply to adults who are not acting with absolute rationality? It's a tricky one, no doubt, and I tend to suspect that we won't ever find an answer so long as our machinery remains so heavily meat-based.
 
To the best of my knowledge the Bayaka people of the Congo scarcely discipline their children at all. I think they spend a great deal of time talking with them in infancy, or something, I can't honestly remember how they do it. And then later let the children learn by making their own mistakes. It seems to work for them, but I'm not sure how far it can be recommended for anyone else.

Here's an article which seems to be talking about this. Though I've not read it all myself.

As noted above, respect for autonomy is a prominent aspect of Aka social
relations. This value is reflected in Aka childrearing. Aka children are rarely rebuked by
adults or other children, and corporal punishment is very rare and never severe (B. S.
Hewlett, 1991, 1992b).
 
Have any of the resident anarchists read books like Human Scale and Small is Beautiful?
Not the books no. I have read some of Kirkpatrick Sale's writings and book reviews already, and so Human Scale has been sitting in my Amazon wishlist for ages. Small is Beautiful looks like it's getting added to that as well. The title reminds me of Chesterton actually, who held not only that small is beautiful, but beauty makes things small.

Spoiler :
It happened that I had that emotion. When one is fond of anything one addresses it by diminutives, even if it is an elephant or a life-guardsman. The reason is, that anything, however huge, that can be conceived of as complete, can be conceived of as small. If military moustaches did not suggest a sword or tusks a tail, then the object would be vast because it would be immeasurable. But the moment you can imagine a guardsman you can imagine a small guardsman. The moment you really see an elephant you can call it “Tiny.” If you can make a statue of a thing you can make a statuette of it. These people professed that the universe was one coherent thing; but they were not fond of the universe. But I was frightfully fond of the universe and wanted to address it by a diminutive. I often did so; and it never seemed to mind. Actually and in truth I did feel that these dim dogmas of vitality were better expressed by calling the world small than by calling it large. For about infinity there was a sort of carelessness which was the reverse of the fierce and pious care which I felt touching the pricelessness and the peril of life. They showed only a dreary waste; but I felt a sort of sacred thrift. For economy is far more romantic than extravagance. To them stars were an unending income of halfpence; but I felt about the golden sun and the silver moon as a schoolboy feels if he has one sovereign and one shilling.

Will hopefully be able to respond to Mouthwash and Terxpahseyton later.
 
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