Ask an atheist

[bathsheba666]

Well this is a seperate question, but why stand and face it?

Since nothing matters, (the objective truth of atheism) then what does it matter if an organism that lives 70 years on average if lucky, makes it's own life more pleasant by believing in something that may not be real? what does it matter?

Everything will be dust and dark echoing space in the end no matter what endeavours or truths are learnt, so what does it matter if a small, sad and lonely organism on a tiny little rock decides to anaesthetise his cruel, short existence with hope?

A little too emotive for my taste.....

You haven't proven that nothing matters. Also your prognosis for the end of the universe is only one of a number...

The central issue is one of values, or even style if you will.

Be a man ! (, or a woman, or a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.)

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

my life had a meaning beyond just this existence and i had a spiritual direction, since i lost that my life has become pretty dark, from science i've learned i am just an organic robot full of bits of programming, most of it subconcious, much of it unpleasant, and that there is no point to my life.

A couple of things.

What was the meaning of your life beyond this existence and what was this spiritual direction? Important question: who made this the meaning of your life, and who put you in that direction? Did you do this yourself, or were you told to? And there is a point to your life, the thing is, you have to define it for yourself instead of it being handed pre-packaged to you. You have to think about it. You have to define it, and yes, that means you have to put in the effort yourself.

Lets examine the point to life you had. The whole point was: to judge you whether you were allowed into the afterlife. I'm sorry but that just shifts the question and focus and merely avoids the question altogether. Tell me, what is the point of an afterlife?

edit: had meant to edit this into the other post, but clicked Reply out of habit instead. 'pologies.

 

[Clement]

Lets give an example. Take the Grand Canyon. What is more awesome? Erosion taking millions of years to craft this spectacular vista or a God running his finger through the sand going: "There, that's a canyon".

Well god having made made it with his finger would seem rather silly to me personally, as i can't imagine god as human shaped or having human attributes, the thought of the wind whistling away in complete loneliness for many years while it carved it out is interesting, but certainly not uplifting to me anyway.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

the thought of the wind whistling away in complete loneliness for many years while it carved it out is interesting, but certainly not uplifting to me anyway.

Don't feel bad, it had the river to talk to.

 

[Clement]

A couple of things.What was the meaning of your life beyond this existence and what was this spiritual direction?

I felt that there was a reason for everything, that doing good was not only pleasant but would be looked well upon by a supreme being, that my suffering and the suffering of others was a test sent to improve our character, not a bad stroke of fortune that had no meaning, but most of all i felt that justice would come, that those who did wrong would be punished and that we would all be given eternal life in paradise.

I personally found those promises to be both exciting and comforting

Science and the idea of no god existing tells me many things:

That i have a programmed sub-concious that makes me think in certain ways, that free will, love, anger, memories, even my character are all just chemical reactions that are not objective or true, and that i am not even an individual, just a collection of neurons and brain cells that die eventually, basically that i am nothing.

That those who do wrong for the most part will never be punished because they make the laws, they steal, they lie, they cheat and if they are powerful and rich enough they will never pay, on the contrary their reward is not in heaven, it is here on earth where they enjoy the fruits of their corruption.

That nature is a beautiful but blind and merciless construct, everything devours everything else mercilessly, trees and plants are locked in a slo-motion battle to the death with each other underground with their roots, even fire cannot burn wthout consuming oxygen, everything eats everything else, tthe universe cannibalistic and merciless.

All these scientific truths lead to the thought that god, if it does exist, has made some truly awful things, and if he doesn't exist, all is for nothing, i don't find that an uplifting or joyful experience in any way, even if it is the truth, what value does the truth have over self happiness?

Lets examine the point to life you had. The whole point was: to judge you whether you were allowed into the afterlife. I'm sorry but that just shifts the question and focus and merely avoids the question altogether. Tell me, what is the point of an afterlife?

Well i suppose the point of an afterlife was to live in a paradise forever with people you loved once and had died.

 

[Akka]

I used to have a lot of faith in god, as time went on and life dealt me more blows as it does to us all, and i witnessed the tremendous suffering of other human beings i lost most if not all of my biblical faith, although i still admire many of the teachings of Christ, i cannot claim to be 100% atheist either however because i think there is still a chance that the universe was made by something intelligent.

long story short, i was a lot happier when i had faith, my life had a meaning beyond just this existence and i had a spiritual direction, since i lost that my life has become pretty dark, from science i've learned i am just an organic robot full of bits of programming, most of it subconcious, much of it unpleasant, and that there is no point to my life.

That nature being beautiful on the outside, and something i used to attribute to god's goodness is in fact unbelievably cruel in it's inner workings, the law of nature is survival of the fittest, not survival of the most noble, or the kindest, or of the just, but survival of the devious, the cruel, survival by any means no matter how vicious or ignoble.

I arrived at a mostly atheist viewpoint kicking and screaming, unwilling and not wanting to face it, i didn't joyfully find it, life just hoisted it on me, i don't find it comforting, i don't find facts like "i'm just a robot with no real individuality" interesting, i just find them deeply, deeply depressing, when i look at my family and friends and realise i will never see any of them again, the monumental nature of life's cruely becomes apparent, eternal separation through death, of loved ones and of your own mind seems like the ultimate in sick jokes.

Your post is a good description of why and how religion does exist.

I admit that i look at some atheists in a rather bemused fashion, often you'l see them on youtube with a big grin on their face clutching one of dawkin's works to their chest as they happily explain that nothing matters, that there is no after-life and that justice is just a man-made concept, and i do wonder where their joy comes from, they obviously seem very happy, as if they have been set free from something, possibly a strict religious upbringing that i never had, i myself however don't seem to be to getting any happiness from my atheism, on the contrary it just grieves me.

So after my long winded post comes my question,

What do you find uplifting about atheism, or if not uplifting, what makes it preferable to you than having faith in a deity of some kind?

Well, there is several points about this.

First, it's not necessarily that atheists ENJOY the fact that there is no afterlife, nobody looking after everyone and so on. What they enjoy is just not wallowing in illusions, even if the illusions are comforting. Facing reality rather than rolling oneself into a ball, sticking the head in the sand and say "naaah it's just not fun if the world is like that, so I'll make up an imaginary friend and all will be all right !".

Second, it's maybe less reassuring to not have a paternal figure always looking at you and ready to give you a hand, but it's also much less smothering.
Second bis, I'd like to point that seeing how the world is, in a way it's even reassuring to think "there is most probably no God", because if there was one and it created the world we have, he would be a sick bastard prone to send people to hell on a whim. Having a cosmic a-hole on the lookout to screw everyone over and requiring worship for this, is not what I would call an improvement over a world that simply is.

Third, after you go beyond the depressing "we have no pre-determined point in the world", you can actually enjoy the sheer randomness of the world, and the marvel of its development - I can't get enough of the fascination of the universe, and I can spend hours reading stuff about astrophysics and the immensity and beauty of space.
On the philosophical side, the fact you have no destiny means you can actually find your own way. It's daunting, sure, but more rewarding, and more uplifting to decide and follow a path that actually suits (or aims to suit) you, and not just obey some arbitrary commands from an old book.

Last, don't make a common mistake : it's not because there is not a God that "nothing matters". Everything matters, in its own way, it just isn't part of a grand godly scheme. It's important for people who live it, and morality without a god make actually much more sense - it can stand on its own without requiring the arbitrary backup of an imaginary authority figure.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

What does that mean? Sounds like a pretty sounding statement without support.

Q: What is it Light to you?
A: By day its sun by night its a lamp.

Q: What is the Light that percieves that Light?
A: That is the eye.

Q:What is illumining that Light?
A:That is an intelect.

Q: Who is it who knows the intelect?
A: That is "I".

" You are indeed the Supreme Light."

This is the way of Jnana Yoga. Trying to know the real- unlimited I (soul) through discriminating from the limited (physical senses).

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I felt that there was a reason for everything, that doing good was not only pleasant but would be looked well upon by a supreme being

And now you doing good is looked well upon by a fellow human being who can tell you "thanks" who can reward you with a smile. Instead of nothing who rewards you with nothing, because the feeling always originated from within you.

I'd call that an improvement.

That those who do wrong for the most part will never be punished because they make the laws, they steal, they lie, they cheat and if they are powerful and rich enough they will never pay, on the contrary their reward is not in heaven, it is here on earth where they enjoy the fruits of their corruption.

And it's up to us to deal with them. Not throw our hands in the air and go: awww!

Well i suppose the point of an afterlife was to live in a paradise forever with people you loved once and had died.

Now try and translate that point to this life. You only have one little element to change to get to the exact same point.

Q: What is it Light to you?
A: By day its sun by night its a lamp.

Q: What is the Light that percieves that Light?
A: That is the eye.

Q:What is illumining that Light?
A:That is an intelect.

Q: Who is it who knows the intelect?
A: That is "I".

" You are indeed the Supreme Light."

This is the way of Jnana Yoga. Trying to know the real- unlimited I (soul) through discriminating from the limited (physical senses).

How does that explain:

If you live in the body its all fate if you live in the soul its all free will.

 

[Clement]

You haven't proven that nothing matters.

Well i see no other conclusion to what science says, no matter if humans become civilized and kindly beings or if they decend into barbarism, it will all be the same in the end, dark, dead space, science says that as far as i am aware, unless they saying something else now.

 

[Clement]

And now you doing good is looked well upon by a fellow human being who can tell you "thanks" who can reward you with a smile. Instead of nothing who rewards you with nothing, because the feeling always originated from within you.

I'd call that an improvement.

The hell do i care what a man of power thinks of me? how you think they got there?

I am a servant, but i am a picky servant and man is no worthy master, just look at the way the world is, we got millions for war and nothing to feed the poor.

i agree a smile from a good person for a good deed is a wonderful thing, and i will always help those who i feel deserve it if i am able, but men of power will never get a bended knee from me no matter who they think they are, but in this life we have to serve, and there is no one worth serving.

I remember a saying now, i don't know who said it, but they said "man will ultimately become a servant to god or to tyrants" and it stuck in my mind, because it also works on a symbolic level, even those who don't believe in god can see a symbolic meaning to this saying.

And it's up to us to deal with them. Not throw our hands in the air and go: awww!

Has never happened and never will happen, man is too corrupt, the biggest thieves make the law.

Now try and translate that point to this life. You only have one little element to change to get to the exact same point.

I want to see my brother again, i want to hold him and se his face, this will never happen with atheism and thus for me it is utterly worthless, yet i cannot escape it because i have no faith.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The hell do i care what a man of power thinks of me? how you think they got there?

Who was talking about men of power?

Has never happened and never will happen, man is too corrupt, the biggest thieves make the law.

Well, with that attitude, I can see why you're depressed.

I want to see my brother again, i want to hold him and se his face, this will never happen with atheism and thus for me it is utterly worthless, yet i cannot escape it because i have no faith.

Some things you can't have with or without atheism.
Without: I want to have a conversation with God, I want him to explain the universe to me.

I also would like to see my mother again. But I have to accept she's gone. And I have to do with memories. Life and death are part of it, yeah. With or without atheism. It does emphasize the value of life.

 

[bathsheba666]

Well i see no other conclusion to what science says, no matter if humans become civilized and kindly beings or if they decend into barbarism, it will all be the same in the end, dark, dead space, science says that as far as i am aware, unless they saying something else now.

What, qualitatively, do you think is the difference between shouting into the void, and posting on the internet ?

Who is making that judgement?

 

[Clement]

Well, with that attitude, I can see why you're depressed.

Science tells many things about man, if you dig deep enough biologically by reading some of the more less known articles you'l see that science paints a pretty damning picture of us as a species, our sub-concious programming and the merciless construct we sprang from which is nature, survival of the fittest by any means necessary or possible, you have darwin as an avatar, so you know what science says about man.

Only a month ago i read that feelings of altruism and goodwill are only biological, that helping other humans makes us feel good because nature made us that way to survive as a group, it has nothing to do with an individual being good, it's just programming according to the article i read.

Why shouldn't findings like these make me depressed? the "truth" is stripping man of his very being, of everything we thought was good about us, turns out it's just programming, bit by bit stripped of all decency, no merit or credit to us, just automatons, at least the idea of god had some hope going for it.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

How does that explain:

unlimited (soul) = free will
limited (physical) = fate

if one is above some universal laws (fate, karma or physical) one enjoys (unlimited)free will. creator is source of creation so he is above its laws. soul being the direct portion of god has the same ultimate potential

 

[Leoreth]

Science tells many things about man, if you dig deep enough biologically by reading some of the more less known articles you'l see that science paints a pretty damning picture of us as a species, our sub-concious programming and the merciless construct we sprang from which is nature, survival of the fittest by any means necessary or possible, you have darwin as an avatar, so you know what science says about man.

It seems you're confusing Darwinism with Social Darwinism here, a largely discredited worldview.

Only a month ago i read that feelings of altruism and goodwill are only biological, that helping other humans makes us feel good because nature made us that way to survive as a group, it has nothing to do with an individual being good, it's just programming according to the article i read.

Why shouldn't findings like these make me depressed? the "truth" is stripping man of his very being, of everything we thought was good about us, turns out it's just programming, bit by bit stripped of all decency, no merit or credit to us, just automatons, at least the idea of god had some hope going for it.

Even if this is true (there's still a huge debate going on), how does that change how you perceived altruism and good actions before and after? People still do bad things all around us, so it can't be programming that strictly forces our every action. It's still you who decides what you do. If we do something good, it's because of our decisions, not because of a biologistic imperative.

And do you really decide how to view the world because of what you want to be true, instead of what is actually most likely to be true?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

unlimited (soul) = free will
limited (physical) = fate

if one is above some universal laws (fate, karma or physical) one enjoys (unlimited)free will. creator is source of creation so he is above its laws. soul being the direct portion of god has the same ultimate potential

Unlimited free will? Above Universal laws? Ok, so why don't you fly around the house for a while if you have that option?

@Clement. Our rules are evolved from social interaction, not pre-programmed as you name it. And they are still evolving, it is fluid.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

, but in this life we have to serve, and there is no one worth serving.

.

Everybody is a server, it is an inescapable reality. The moment you are physicaly close to somebody you are already serving that person becouse your consciousness penetrates the other person and vice versa.

The ancient wisdom says to never see anything bad in anybody. See only the positive reality and consider that to be the real person. Ultimately one realises the universal oneness of everything and the question of service becomes pointless.

 

[Clement]

It seems you're confusing Darwinism with Social Darwinism here, a largely discredited worldview.

As far as i am aware, nature works by trying to make creatures that survive, and there is no law written in that those creatures must have any nobility or decency, just that they survive, if being good is bad for survival, then it is phased out by the creature dying out, it has no justice at all, and man is a product of that construct.

How often do you hear people smugly saying on forums "oh he won a darwin award" well it means that a person through perceived stupidity someohow managed to remove themselves from the gene-pool, it's a cold thought to have, it's heartless and it's sad.

Even if this is true (there's still a huge debate going on), how does that change how you perceived altruism and good actions before and after?

It destroys the notion of the self made good human, and therefore free will, it relegates me to a programmed robot, i can't even use the word "me" because parts of my brain can be cut away and either i won't notice or it may even change my character completely.

I don't exist according to science, i am just a collection of cells, there is no "me", it may be true, but i find that deeply depressing.

People still do bad things all around us, so it can't be programming that strictly forces our every action. It's still you who decides what you do. If we do something good, it's because of our decisions, not because of a biologistic imperative.

That article didn't seem to think so, i've read other articles too that would point at people doing bad things as simply rolling a dice on the risk/reward factor to get ahead in life, once again just following nature's laws like robots.

And do you really decide how to view the world because of what you want to be true, instead of what is actually most likely to be true?

I think it's possible to choose to be an atheist, but i don't think it's possible to choose to have faith, it's either there or it isn't, although perhaps a life experience may restore it i don't know, it could be argued that a clever man may not delve too deeply into reality but just live his life in peace if he knew that great unhappiness could come from it, i think my biggest mistake was to get too inquisitive about life, i found things i hated and now i cannot return to the old way of thinking.

I've posted enough now, i think you all see why some scientific discoveries and my unwanted atheism depresses me whether you feel i am thinking about it in the correct manner or not.

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't get any comfort from atheism. I prefer to be loved and in a community. I have that, but I can imagine it would be better if the community included a god. OTOH, I get relief by being an atheist, because I am sorely unsatisfied with Abrahamic moral teachings. Yeah, I have dissonance with the fact that life doesn't have a 'grand' purpose, just human-imposed purposes. But at least I don't have to call evil "good".

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Unlimited free will? Above Universal laws? Ok, so why don't you fly around the house for a while if you have that option?

.

I am talking about the ultimate possibilities. if you were talking to me about nuclear chain reaction I wouldnt respond to you that you should go break up some atoms knowing that you probably do not have the needed reactor at home...

Although I have a soul I am not with direct contact with it. To do that one has to invest lot of effort.