Asking for your advice – Shadow game on Emperor

I'm back from my trip after visiting two WW, a UB and a city building in real life. ;)

Before continuing I'd like to wait for your advice how to progress. Most open questions are summarized in my previous post, but I got the impression that I should continue waging war after attacking Surya. Therefore I should continue to build cuirs and not go for another golden age?
Mansa isn't yet willing to peace vassal, probably because I am currently only at 1,4 military power.
 
Well, do tell where you went on vacation. Was it Paris? Not that far if you drove from West Germany. Kinda bizarre if you toured Notre Dame. That was extremely sad.

Really not too much to add from my last post. I think war is the way to go, so basically just primarily build Curs from here on out. You can head on to Rifling to convert to Calvary later, and pick up Astro on the way. You might get Optics in trade or peace deal later, especially if Mansa caps to you.

Again, remember that an AI will not peace vassal to you while you are at war, but that should not stop you. You can check later after capping Sury while you regroup. Your power ratio to Mansa should only continue to grow.

Maybe report after you cap Sury unless your run into trouble during the war or have questions.

Oh..since you traded Natio to Mansa then Taj is at risk, and well quite expensive anyway without marble or a GE. I think Mansa has marble as well. It is nice to get that wonder, but it is irrelevant at this point.
 
@lymond: My wife and me visited Rome and we had a very nice time. But when we entered a restaurant on our last evening, the Notre Dame disaster was live on TV. Very scary! We were really shocked.

On with my game. Six turns from my last session, and I'm in serious trouble. At least this is my impression. I'm not worried about the war itself, that is going well as predicted by you and Pangaea. The peace treaty between Surya and me was terminated 1010 A.D. (turn 161) and I declared war immediately. Within 5 turns I conquered five of his cities - the north and the core. My casualities were marginal (3 cuirs, 2 due to his UU, 1 due to an axe against all odds), and I defeated about half of his army with ease. Thereby I sacked a GG who is now heading towards my injured and spreaded units. I'm a bit disappointed that I only managed to capture three workers so far.

My problem is along the following line of events. After my war declaration Darius was cut off of my trade routes. 1030 A.D. Surya finished feudalism (too late :p) and converted to Taoism, the religion of Süley. 1050 A.D. Surya became vassal of Süley, who immediately declared war to Darius and me, who were at war with his vassal. In the meanwhile war wearinsess in my cities changed from a nuisance to real trouble. 3-4 :mad: in seven of my ten cities and I seem to have no antidote.

Spoiler war weariness :

war weariness.JPG


I was intending to sack city Rajavihara next turn. This would free the captured cities (Angkor Thom, Hariharalaya) and their surroundings from Surya's cultural influence and would cut him off of copper, leaving only ivory to him (and perhaps later again horses). After that I'd have tried to end the war for the time being and to bring Surya down in a second wave. But although Süley would accept to end the war in principle (message in my log), he is not willing to talk to me. Therefore I'm in a double bind - I cannot end the war and I cannot cope with the war weariness in my cities. But wait - I faintly remember that war weariness wears off if no troops are on hostile territory. Perhaps I should call it a day after capturing Rajavihara and consolidate my empire.

Süley himself shouldn't pose a major military threat. Supply is built in my cities. Perhaps I should build maces/pikes/oromos in my new cities as well. Anyhow, Süley is likely to become my next target. I'm already putting nearly all of my EP on him.

The general medium-term idea to first finish rifling (is this the proper english term for the tech, that enables cavalry?), consolidate the new cities, get eco for the GM and then either go along chemistry-steel or heading to scientific method with three wonderful follow-up techs. And the last AI is still waiting to get in touch with the rest of the world.
 

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Ah..thought it might be Rome too..almost mentioned it. Went there years ago.

Okay, I did not seem to catch that you were in a peace treaty with Sury in the last save. Something you should avoid doing leading up to an attack as you want to do so asap. I thought you were attacking next turn in that save. Begging gold will give peace treaty, as well as giving into a demand/request...so something to consider.

As for the war, it really boils down to a) managing the war and being aware of target's status c) aware of global state of affairs and the target's relationships. So ask yourself who Sury likes and who likes him. Secondly, is that leader capable of or willing to declare war on you, by virtue of, in this case, was is essentially a peace vassalization for protection. In the case of being "capable" of war, you need to look at any possible candidates that might be bribed into war against you by Sury. These are leaders that both like Sury enough and have a status with you that enables them to declare. For example, Mansa likes Sury, but he is Friendly with you (very friendly), so Sury can never bribed him into war against you. Not sure if you are aware of this article, but it is great for understanding how each leader is coded to act toward certain situation:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/

In this case though, I failed to recognize that the Ottos and Persians were at war with Sury. This can be problematic. At a certain point after you take cities, and Ottos are Persians do what they do, Sury will reach a point where he will want to capitulate. (his willingness is based on reduction of power and wear weariness and his coded resistance to capitulation, e.g. Sury is 2/10 and Mansa is 0/10 -both very low - you can see in article above) You want to either do that before the others, or get the others out of there wars by bribing them out with techs and/or gold).

So I would go back and replay from the last save. Look each turn to see if you can capitulate Sury. If you cannot do so after taking a few cities and before the estimated time in current playthru that Ottos did so, then I would bribe Ottos out of the war. I doubt Darius has had all that much success against Sury, as he's been at war with him a while and is far away, but you may want to bribe him out as well. You really don't want Sury to cap to either of them, as that means you have to finish off Sury entirely, or hope he breaks away from the Ottos, which is highly doubtful. Better just to go straight in and cap Sury asap. The peace treaty was not helpful.

...i think you may be able to cap Sury before Ottos do..you just may simply not have been looking for the option to do so

Ideally, you cap Sury asap and then likely just give him back his cities. Prop him up a bit with tech,and he will help you in later wars (also, note that you can direct a vassal research through the dialogue)

Actually, I would have stopped putting EPs in Suly. Maybe a little to keep visibility up for a while..you do have a cushion there before that stops, but otherwise it is wasted on an AI who will eventually become your vassal.

and actually, I might even go back to before you gave Mansa Nationalism (which was very bad), and got that peace treaty with Sury. Also, as mentioned early better whipping should get you more units faster and likely start the war even sooner.

Well, as for weariness, that is something you may have to deal with at times, but in this case the problem is you put yourself in an unfortunate situation of prolonged war, and Ottos have Statue of Zeus...so any failures in combat are compounded. If you trade for Drama, it enables the Culture slider, which increase happiness by 1 for each increase in the slider (more with theatres and colisseums). So that is an option to do temporarily if war weariness unhappiness becomes and issue.

Yep, Rifling it is...
 
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Ok..NoE...I played a few turns from your 980 save to show you what can be done (save attached at point capped Herr Sury):

I declared war on turn peace treaty expired. Meanwhile every city was producing Curs, even Aksum. Not sure, but I probably produced somewhere around 20 curs in those turns minus a few silly losses. Trade Compass to Sullie for Drama so I could raise slider since I did get 1 unhappy in Aksum. Whipped Aksum Cur into the Theatre (creative) so that problem was remedied quickly. (Debra took a grass cottage) Anyway, war was very short.

Here's pic of capitulation at 1030AD after 3 cities:

Spoiler you are mine muwahahaha :
QHa2pPX.jpg


Here's me immediately trading for a coupla happies:

Spoiler gimme :
o2pSr41.jpg


And directing his tech:

Spoiler you do what I tell ya, son :
NrOOW88.jpg


Not so much that I care about Theo, but just to get him teching something I don't have so I can trade Feud to him later for some gold or something. I will probably gift him some techs soon anyway to make him stronger militarily or to open a tech pathway for him to tech something good for me. I may also bribe him to stop trading with certain AIs...like future targets, but not any that would hurt relationships like Mansa, who expect should peace vassal soon.

Also, while I did trade resource, I'm going to wait a turn to give Sury back his cities since he is currently WE with both Sulie and DArius, but that generally changes for vassals on the next turn. (don't want diplo malus not that it really matters..they will all be yours)

Went Optics after Eco, since a) did not want to trade Mansa for it with what I have ..he already has too much and is not your vassal yet b) I'd send GM on a caravel to find unmet AI and run trade mission there, which should be lucrative overseas. Debra can whip a caravel. (Optics only took 1 turn to tech) Then off to Rifling..with the exception of Astro, teching not really all that important after that.....maybe Chem>Sci Meth>Communism for State Property, but you've won this game with Curs/Cavs.

Next goal would be to regroup and heal what you have and then move on to Otto destruction.

Oh..and def turn off EP with Sury after capping..don't need it on vassal. But note that I lower EP on Sury to 1 at 980...pretty much put 1 weight on everyone.

I think you can keep Ankor Wat without culture/revolt issues, if you'd like, but no point not gifting the others back to Sury.
 

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Here's me (erm...you) capitulating Sulie in 1090AD:

Spoiler come to papa :
IeCcugG.jpg


Probably coulda done that a turn or two sooner instead of healing troops, which I still only partially did...had plenty of health Curs.

Really surprised Mansa won't cap yet while there is peace. Our power is high enough, but Mansa does have 12 cities so that plays into it.

At this stage, I might consider splitting armies a bit. Sending a strong healthy force to take Persia, who should fall easily. But split a smaller number to troops to combine with reinforcements coming from the W to create a new strong stack to head to France, to put Louie out of his misery.

I gave techs to Sury so I could task him with Astro, but he may not finish it when I need it. (i switched him into Bureau though so maybe he will pick things up some). If Mansa does cap, he'd be ideal for this.
 

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@lymond: Rome was quite an experience for me. I hope you liked it, too. Stone and marble everywhere! No wonder that the city is full of WW or the like. ;)

Fisr of all I apologise for some confusion I have caused by my last saves :blush:. My 1050 save is not a direct successor of the 980 save, and I definitively should have mentioned this. Instead I resumed the game some turns before to optimize my military build and played on till 1050 A.D. In this sequence Süley was not at war with Surya.
I made a mistake thinking that I can declare war when a former peace treaty is down to zero turns (1000 A.D.). Instead I had to wait one more turn.

Preventing Surya to become a vassal of Süley:

In response to your post #84 I made a quick experiment by going back to 1040 A.D. (turn 164). I was still able to catch cities number 3 and 4. After that Surya was willing to capitulate and to pay.

The power of vassaling:
My problem is now another one. I believe that I completely misunderstood the purpose of waging war. I thought that I was going to conquer Surya's cities, to keep them and to develop them afterwards. Instead of this, I now got the impression that you are introducing me to the power of vassaling. This is terra incognita for me, I have to confess. I mishandled it once (a long time ago - I couldn't get rid of my vassal) and avoided it like the plague since then. Could you please explain briefly the goal of vassaling Surya? Is it a bridge to further expansion? What is the reason of giving back cities to Surya? Is he meant to be a strong ally? I have to confess that I'm lost at the moment. For me it comes down to the conclusion, that the war was meant to vassal a contender.

Your messages #85 and #86 - playing on:

Moving the target of war, overcoming the happiness problem, combining the GM, optics, the trade mssion and the search of the unknown AI - all this fits so neatly in your summary. 10 turns and two rivals are shattered! I will first closely study your sessions and then try to reproduce them as good as I can either from 980 A.D. or from 1040 A.D.

Again I'm amazed by the depth of this game. I thank you for your effort and for your time to guide me through all stages of this game.
 
Glad you had a good time. I spent several days in Rome as a teenager on a tour of Europe...ha..yeah..I was in awe..and a history fanatic since a young age. Unfortunately Germany was not a destination on that student trip(England>France>Switz>Italy>Greece), but I've been to Germany a couple of times in recent years...love it.

Oh...do feel free to replay while learning. Really helps with practice and reinforcing concepts. But just for perspective, I want to make clear that due to the way you have played this game, through your meticulous learning effort, you are in an extremely strong position here. You can basically steam-roll the continent at this point. Honestly, it is Emperor, but even so the AI seem a little nerfed relatively speaking for this stage of the game, but as with any game on higher than average difficulty, the AIs will start to ramp up a bit now tech wise..or they should.


Ok..the deal on vassaling can vary a bit depending on one's goals...and a bit when playing casually competitive like a GOTM or HOF (see sig :)). If strictly going for Conquest or Domination, and more specifically Conquest, well capping everyone is often the fastest way to do just that. Domination takes into account land and population percentage. Population is usually a foregone conclusion, but land can get tricky. Vassals land counts 50% toward the land % requirement. Therefore, your willingness to vassal all or some may play toward how it would impact fast Domination, as you may need more "owned" land than vassal land to optimally achieve fast Domination. (all that may be little confusing now if not that experienced with Dom wins, but it will later)

But there also other factors as to why a vassal is good or even bad. Let's take Sury. He's reasonably large, but has few wonders. However, he tends to culture press a bit more because of his trait and the cheap buildings it provides. Culture pressure on captured cities can produce revolt risk, and that can go away over a very very long time as you build culture. Certain amount of units in a pressed city will stamp the revolt risk, but you usually want those units fighting. So in this case, I capped Sury gave back two cities but kept Ankor Wat as it was not under culture pressure. Also, in that particular save Sury was at war with two AIs so I certainly, as you found, could not wait to wipe Sury off the map. (edit: well, I could bribe the others out of war, but really did not want to do that,and well I was perfectly fine in capping Sury)

So it may seem a bit complex, but not really. If I'm fighting someone where I've captured beautiful wonder-filled cities, especially really good wonders, but those cities will be in revolt danger, I might just continuing killing the guy off..or I may just whittle him down to a few negligible cities.

In this case, simply with Sury it was about cap asap and move onto the next guy, as my mindset was conquest or domination. Regardless, there is certainly no harm in taking vassals instead of capping, and although AIs do stupid stuff, they can be useful in future wars, especially if you prop them up. Ha.. .you can even gift them old units and they will upgrade them. So really, in terms of military victories it really boils down to what works out best given the situation. I tend to take vassals generally. It's simply faster. What I keep or give back varies.

And realize this is all compounded as you move up to Imm and Deity, and higher levels vassals are even more effective.

Now let's look at other VCs:

1) Culture - optimal fast culture games generally don't involve much war at all much less vassals.

2) Diplomacy (either kind) - There is a term we use called "Diplomation". Basically, achieving easier Diplo wins as if one is pursuing Domination and taking vassals. Vassals vote for master, so it makes the intricacies of attaining enough votes simple.

3) Space - now this where vassals can really get intricate, but I've already alluded earlier to one positive that can really play well into Space games. First, you can potentially win a Space game with any kind of empire including a small ..say..6 city empire - enough to build Ox. But optimal Space actually is about land..the power of land. The more land you have the more research potential you have. (For perspective, with a ton of land you are potentially looking at thousands of beakers per turn, especially when you factor in the power of hammer economy late game with State Property or Corps...I'm talkin' 3 to 4 to 5,000 beakers per turn or more so that you 1 turn a lot of the really expensive late game techs) So to point, Space games for me actually involve a lot of war as I want all the land I can get (without tripping Domination). However, I might take one or two strong vassals (like a Mansa) and prop them up so I can put them on tech paths to tech things for me which can save me many turns on the way to Space.

I have no clue why you would try to get rid of a vassal. (only way to do that is to pizz him off enough that he breaks away..or does otherwise because somehow you got too weak)

A vassal is yours, but feel free to kill Sury if you wish.

Yeah, take a look at the games. Note that basically in most cities I was whipping a Cur every other turn. Just whipped one out of Aksum though..don't really want to whip that. But yeah...ALL cities but Aksum were whipping. Start to be mindful of how that works with cities with forges. You may..say..3 pop a Cur first, then see how the OF goes into the next Cur such that the following turn it is a 2pop whip....and pretty much two pop whip thereafter except in weaker cities. At some point you may slow down on that a bit and let cities grow, especially after you have such a large army, but you really don't stop the Cur train, so to speak.
(Debra I had gone ahead and 1popped that Cur - it shoulda been 2 popped earlier - into a new Cur)

(and just to be clear, and i'm sure you know this, but don't whip units on Turn 0 of production...ever...unless an absolute emergency)

edit: Another scenario that is kinda cool with vassals when you are fighting a lot of wars is that sometimes..for example...you take vassal A. Then, you start fighting B. A and B share borders and there is a bit of culture pressure there. I start taking some cities from B, which are certainly pressed, and then gift or liberate those to A. Usually, A gets some free units in those cities as well.
 
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