Asking for your advice – Shadow game on Emperor

As announced I replayed my previous session trying to benefit from the various advices and to avoid my former mistakes. In fact the result feels much better subjectively.

In detail:
  1. After reseaching alpha I interspersed fishing: short term for workboat/fish in Debra Berhan, medium term to allow sailing. It took me only two turns (one net turn), amazing how my tech pace has changed. Next tech was math (4 net turns. In fact it took me six turns due to deficit research) to get something to trade in and to get the research bonus for currency.

  2. This time my scout cleared the coastline on his way east. Therefore he missed Mansa Musa's scout on t84 and arrived at his borders several turns later. Lymond, this coastline clearing was great advice, see 3) and 8).

  3. After alpha I avoided to start trading immediately. Neither Surya nor Süley had valuable techs to trade in. As math was completed, I traded it for IW (Süley) and for sailing and masonry (Mansa). The immediate result were foreign trade routes (+2C) for my three oldest cities.
    My empire can only have one trade route to a foreign city, right?
    I was surprised that only Mansa was willing to trade in masonry. What is so special about it that both Surya and Süley were reluctant?

  4. Surya requested agri and I gave in. He was annoying in all my games when he was there, but at the moment I want a good relationship.

  5. t88 I founded Adulis in a spot closer and better suited than last time.

  6. Mansa, who founded Confucianism, sent a missionary to Surya's cap Yasodharapura. Surya immediately converted. I believe the mssionary was the one whom you get for free when you found a religion.

  7. All my cities now have a warrior for +1:) happiness. Ok, Debre will have soon because after Addis' border expansion my SW fogbuster got jobless.

  8. All nine FP around my cap and slightly beyond are cottaged and worked. In addition I'm running 3-4 scientists due to ample food surplus. It is amazing how smoothly your basic concept works: developing my empire by means of helper cities to aid my cap on its way to a bureau cap.

  9. I mistakenly farmed a grassland river tile instead of building a cottage and lost some turns in effect. Connecting iron is in progress. After its completion I will go for a few swords/axes.

  10. I was able to trade in wheat for fur with Mansa and could further increase my happiness cap. Thus my cities can still grow. But why was Mansa willing to trade in a happiness ressource for a health ressource?

  11. Fogbusting becomes less important as my empire expands. The region N/NW of Adulis looks still suspicious to me. But the only other remaining fogbuster moved east of Adulis.
    Does the 5x5 square fogbusting rule only apply to units or to cultural border tiles, too?
Spoiler Turn 94 again - my Empire :

t94 - Empire north.JPG the Northt94 - Empire south.JPG the South


Observations and future plans
  1. It appears to me that Mansa is shafted terrain-wise. A small to medium area mixed of tundra/plains/grassland. Currently he owns four cities and has 6-7 skirmishers. Main ressources are three crabs and four furs. He has iron.

  2. What the heck is Surya doing all the time? He has much better land and good potential, mainly forested grassland, but poorly developed. Only one of three clams have got a workboat, forests are not chopped, although he knows BW from early on. Surya claimed agri from me not until t92. He has just 2-3 huts commerce-wise. He has at least six (valuable) calendar ressources, unworked. But what is he doing? Teching math, which took him an eternity, then switched to construction, which will take him even longer. He has some jungle tiles (the equator is near). He is missing IW and calendar, which would be on the top of my priority tech list. Maybe I missed such things ín my previous games, but this is plain stupid and an invitation to his rivals.Surya owns 5 cities and has some axes, a pike and several archers.

  3. Next foundation of a city is close, N of Akulis. I'm pretty unsure about the exact spot. Riverside/fresh water vs iron, coastal vs non coastal, number of FP, number of forests to chop. I believe health will not be an issue for some time due to all my health ressources, therefore I'm inclined to settle 3N1W of Akulis.

  4. The next but one city will eventually be fish city N of the horse.

  5. Tech-wise I would go for CoL (cheap courthouses, spying), CS (bureaucracy), Monarchy (happiness by MP, wine). But would the GL be worth to consider? I'm pretty sure that I can trade for CoL with Mansa.

  6. I'd like to establish a trade route to Surya as well, but – as lymond has pointed out – we are still not close enough, and along the coastline there are two obstacles: the barb city, which I intend to attack medium term with two swords and a backup unit, and a fogged cape S of my empire, which is not accessible due to mountains. I ponder on sending a workboat along the southern coastline, but I fear a barb trireme.

  7. After I saved my game I glanced one turn further and met Louis the fourteenth, the founder of Buddhism, at two spots. Near Mansa and at Surya. Mansa and Louis are already arch enemies, so I will stay out of his way, because I don't want to spoil my relationship to Mansa. But I was baffled that I was already at a solid -3 with Louis, because I traded with his worst enemy Mansa. But that happened two turns before I met Louis. How can that be?

  8. Last point: I wonder how to assess all these plain tiles after chopping. Is there a useful improvement medium term beside farming them for chaining irrigation after CS? Should I cottage them until I'll run out of food surplus? Much later with biology there shouldn't be a problem, maybe in combination with communism, but then it would be a pity to tear down all these cottages-villages.
Again, thank you all for reading such a long message and please feel free to give me your feedback.
 

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My empire can only have one trade route to a foreign city, right?
Yes, this number goes up by various reasons: https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Trade_route_(Civ4)

I was surprised that only Mansa was willing to trade in masonry. What is so special about it that both Surya and Süley were reluctant?
Each Civ has its reasons whether or not to trade a tech. It could be they are building a specific wonder ("We have our reasons"), it could be that there are only a few other civs that know this tech ("We don't want to trade away this tech yet", this varies for each civ, see Civ Illustrated #1 (Know Your Enemy) and look for 'Will trade techs that don't unlock units or buildings to human when XX% of the other AIs also know the tech'. Or it could be that you have been trading too many techs with other civs ("We fear you are becoming too advanced"). The number of techs also varies per civ (see previous link).
In this case I'd say that Surya and Sulley are building the Pyramids.

But why was Mansa willing to trade in a happiness ressource for a health ressource?
AI's value health/luxury resources quite equally (I think). Strategic resources are values much higher (therefor it is e.g. quite beneficial to trade away some copper if you have iron anyway, or your stone/marble/horses if you temporarily don't need them).

After its completion I will go for a few swords/axe
Only necessary if you plan to conquer the barb city or wage a war any other way. Otherwise not really needed.

Does the 5x5 square fogbusting rule only apply to units or to cultural border tiles, too?
As I recall correctly cultural borders only spawnbust tiles that are visible to them. I believe there are some extensive forum threads/posts about this.

settle 3N1W of Akulis
Why not settle on the coast? Instant access to fishies

I'd like to establish a trade route to Surya as well,
Just build a road from Adulis to Angkor Wat
 
Yep, happy/health resources are same value. Very different for strat resources and marble/stone have higher value. Masonry is a wonder tech which can make AIs not trade it until those wonders are built. Maths and Calendar are also early techs that AIs often won't trade immediately - but not always.

A few points:

1) things are looking good

2) I assume 3N1W was a mistake. City should go 1SE of deer b/w fish. Obvious spot and very good city with iron later. The Fish a bit E of that spot also factors as that city can only be settled on one tile to get the fish. (settling on river is nice for bonus, but by no means supercedes settled a good city spot or burning another spot)

3) Nice that you are improving Adulis but once again failing to chop. Two forests there would have given you an instant Granary.

4) Yeha and Debra should 1 pop their granaries next turn after they both grow. OF into libraries. Just a note on a concept with granaries. Ideally you want to finish a granary before food bar reaches half full. This allows the granary storage effect to start working as the city is still growing at the current pop point. Granary stores half of food at pop point for next growth, but the storage process is not instant - it stores as the city grows based on its food surplus. Bit complex to understand maybe at first but you will get it. 1popping those two cities next turn will achieve this as they just grew.

5) Need a worker over on Addis to chop for new settler as I mentioned in previous post. It has two 30H forests in BFC and a 24H forest it will get next turn with border pop on that PH forest. (chops more valuable in borders)

6) When deer/fish is settled don't be afraid to chop those tundra forests, even though it renders the tundra tiles basically useless for the game, except the river side tundra that can be workshopped or watermilled.

7) I'd settled deer/fish next as it is very good city with some natural production. Settler from Addis can finally settle that 2 fish ice city. Debra can produce WBs for that later. Deer/fish can produce its own with a chop. Double fish can eventually take horses for some production, but once it gets a library it is a great city for running some scientists.

8) Finish Currency. CoL is a next good option but you might be able to part tech it and trade from Mansa if he does not go Alpha..unlikely. But CoL will be more expensive as Mansa likely to hold monopoly on it for some time as CoL tends to not be focused by AIs for awhile after the religion from it is founded.

9) CS is definitely a priority to get bureau, but you might also go the Music line (Myst>Poly>Aeths>Lit>Music) for the free Great Artist (which will be used to get a golden age and civic switches) On this level, I'd probably go for CS first and switch to bureau, then music.

With trade route open to Mansa now, you will likely get Confused soon, which will be nice since Sury already adopted it.

Some reason your GS from Gondar is a little slower now than last play.

Plains tiles generally can be ignored for some time. If a city needs it and the tile can be farmed, I might do that. Otherwise most plains tiles will be workshops later, or watermills if allowed. Ofc, chain irrigation to food specials is a must, like Gondar wheat, which can be irrigated up from that Lake. Debra's wheat can simply be irrigated by placing a farm on that riverside tundra tile just NE of the wheat. (Aksum's corn will auto-irrigate at CS since Aksum is on river)

Monarch is usually a tech you can trade for easily. Just need to open it up. Might be reason to go Myst>Poly>PH after Currency first. Unless you can trade for Monotheism after teching Poly as that opens it up too. But, if not, PH much cheaper option to tech.

I would report back after Currency is teched in about 4 turns, to assess.

You could road to Ankor, after Adulis worker chops forest 1SE of his current position, then start roading from the desert tile 1SE of city center directly to Ankor. It is 11 worker turn to do this though, so may not be worth it short term. Yet it should basically double your foreign trade routes and trade commerce. You are actually not too bad on # of workers and worker turns in general, and likely due for a new one soon. Lali is probably a good place to 2pop a worker after it grows to pop 5. A well timed worker whip there can or just about finish an Org Lighthouse there...for its lake. (<=29H into worker...more hammers into worker - up to 29H - the more OF)

Warrior way S near barb city should stand on desert tile just N of peaks to prevent as much barb galley spawn as possible..they will start spawning soon. Ofc, the barb city might produce some as well.

Warrior way up NE needs to move back to bust...standing on that PH is probably good. Several spots for barb galley spawn up there, which soon the new cities will help prevent but you want to limit or eliminate it as much as possible to protect Debra's fish

So 3 cities up N to settle soon. Future thinking, if available still, whales/iron/wheat and maybe even horse/cow are good.


One last thing I would point out that has not been emphasized enough here is that first GS. Especially with Creative's fast libraries, you really should have your first GS by now for that Academy in Aksum. Really that probably should have been produced in Aksum as other cities take the brunt of expansion. You will get one in 11t from Gonda, and that is fine, but ideally I believe this could have been setup to come much earlier. Just food for thought. Especially in a juicy cap like Aksum, that academy is huge.
 
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Great reviews from both of you, Jarno and lymond. I still have to learn a lot. The scope of this game is really amazing. As lymond proposed I stopped after currency was researched.

I assume 3N1W was a mistake. City should go 1SE of deer b/w fish. Obvious spot and very good city with iron later. The Fish a bit E of that spot also factors as that city can only be settled on one tile to get the fish.
Jarno proposed the very same spot, and I have taken it in account, too. But for me it would have been a narrow decision between an overlap with Adulis (a spot 1S of suggested place) and access to the FC after 5 turns (creative) and settling coastal. Maybe I'm overlooking something obvious.

Nice that you are improving Adulis but once again failing to chop. Two forests there would have given you an instant Granary.
Argh! I now have the power of a 30H Math destruction and again forgot about it! :hammer2: Honestly, I now understand that a quick granary is superior to a +2F tile.

Just a note on a concept with granaries. Ideally you want to finish a granary before food bar reaches half full. This allows the granary storage effect to start working as the city is still growing at the current pop point. Granary stores half of food at pop point for next growth, but the storage process is not instant - it stores as the city grows based on its food surplus.
This is really good to know, thank you. I read an article about food, whipping and granary at the war academy, but failed to understand this point. If I whip while the food bar is over 50% I will not get the food surplus, right?

Need a worker over on Addis to chop for new settler as I mentioned in previous post.
Yes, the previous settler was chopped in Addis. I paused chopping here for a few turns to hook up the iron. But now chopping for a settler is resumed.

Some reason your GS from Gondar is a little slower now than last play.
A good observation. Honestly I don't know where I deviated from the previous session.

[about a trade route to Surya]
Just build a road from Adulis to Angkor Wat
You could road to Ankor, after Adulis worker chops forest 1SE of his current position, then start roading from the desert tile 1SE of city center directly to Ankor. It is 11 worker turn to do this though, so may not be worth it short term.
When the camp was completed I was surprised to see the deer in the city screen of Adulis. "Strange" I thought at first, but then I understood. The deer is hooked by the river to the coast and back into my empire at the street near Yeha and from there via streets/rivers back to Adulis.
This made me think again about your suggestions. Because of the river I can start the road 3N2W of Angkor Wat, no?

Warrior way S near barb city should stand on desert tile just N of peaks to prevent as much barb galley spawn as possible..they will start spawning soon. Ofc, the barb city might produce some as well.
Warrior way up NE needs to move back to bust...standing on that PH is probably good. Several spots for barb galley spawn up there, which soon the new cities will help prevent but you want to limit or eliminate it as much as possible to protect Debra's fish
This is a valuable advice for me. I completely forgot your previous comment about barb spawning on sea.

This brings me to the main point of my current message. What path tech-wise should I aim for?
Too bad Mansa and Süley also have got alpha just before turn 99.
Mansa is not willing to trade in CoL for currency and 7 gold. But when I first trade in AH for Archery and 20G with Surya, Mansa makes the deal (27gold). After that CS is 9 net turns (equal to about 15 turns) away. Currently I'd prefer to go this way to a strong bureau cap, with cheap courthouses (spy-points) as icing on the cake.
But lymond mentioned two other tempting possibilities: Myst>Poly>Aeths>Lit>Music ( a long way) with the option to build the great library and a free great artist or Myst>Poly>PH>(Monarchy) which would take 1 turn of research each. As both alternatives require myst and poly perhaps I should tech this first.
I have to confess that I'm not experienced enough to judge what would be best.

Spoiler t99 - Trading Options - Finance Advisor - Tech Trading Screen :

t99 next tech options.JPG t99 finance advisor.JPG t99 tech trading  screen.JPG
 

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Maybe I'm overlooking something obvious.

:lol: yes, the FISH ;). No reason to kill a great food resource . Deer/fish/iron is simply an excellent city. Not sure what FC means or what you thinking was there. Sorry, but there is no logic to the settling that spot..I hope you recognize that, but please do explain more so we understand

(edit: well, technically the fish is still a workable resource for said city.as it can receive a workboat, but it will never be boosted by a lighthouse from the city as it is not on the coast. But there is no tangible benefit to settling off coast here in this particular situation)

This is really good to know, thank you. I read an article about food, whipping and granary at the war academy, but failed to understand this point. If I whip while the food bar is over 50% I will not get the food surplus, right?

Yes, this is really something I did not fully understand until a few years of playing. (note that some war academy stuff is outdated..can't recall how good the granary article is put there is plenty of info on it written elsewhere. The <50% food bar concept here is mostly about "optimizing" the granary impact initially. Food surplus is another factor (Food surplus is total food produced less food used by city - you can see this to left of food bar). So finishing at some point after 50% does not mean you will not get some storage, it just won't be optimize. (As an exercise you can play around with this in a test game and using Worldbuilder..try different scenarios based on a city with..say..one improved good food resource like pig or corn).

So anyway, to see this in game, you should expect at least a half food bar after growing a pop point with a granary in pace. If you see less that 50% food that gran was not optimized. Though cities with high food surplus might be making up the difference in some cases, as food OF is a "thing". I really optimized Gran on a good food surplus city in low pop range and you may very well see the city grow again in 1 to 2 turns.

Now you don't even have to pay that close attention to all this, but I mention it now as it leads to "advanced" play. Pro players know this stuff..ha. On another note, a little trick one can use if you finish a Granary after 50% is on the last turn of growth to the next pop, go into the city and click the avoid growth button. Do that for just one turn and the Gran will store food that turn as you stall growth. Then uncheck that button and let it grow. That is something you can play around with some too. I sometimes do this after whipping stuff as well to store of reenergize the granary effect. (Just once after the whip for subsequent growth point...not like all the time)

Good observation on river. Resources connect automatically if on river within borders. But also factoring here is that you have Sailing and that river is connected to the ocean. Adulis is not actually connected to the river, if I see that correctly. Been a while since I've observed something like what you mentioned, but a 3 tile road from Ankor to that river might just work now..because you have sailing. Road 2 tiles just S and 1 road on the PH next to Ankor.

Anyway, one thing this new idea helps you with is improved worker management. The need for as fewer roads

I would trade AH only for 20g from Sury. As I discussed before, don't trade for Archery.

Mansa has monopoly on CoL right now, so even though technically Currency has a higher base beaker value, Mansa won't trade it equally or better at this time. Also, there slightly more value to any tech that you have no beakers into at all, kinda like the penalty to whipping an item on 1st turn of building with no hammers invested.

Try this, raise slider to 10% research for one turn on CoL, then see what Mansa does as far as trading it for Currency. (only caveat if is for some reason Mansa starts teching Currency himself....we really don't at this point as besides CoL his 2 other techs are very low value. However, based on the info you mentioned about getting gold from Sury, the fact he only asks for 27g in exchange leads me to believe he has not started teching Currency himself)

Here is another lesson as well, or really a reinforcement of some of my prior advice about tech trading. You are starting to see now the intricacy of using the diplo screen with leaders to gauge tech trades. With more practice over time you will get a better feel for this and make more judicial and beneficial trade deals.

Odd that Sury does not have IW yet..very much an AI priority tech. But then he did not have AH either, so a direct trade for 20g is good. But keep an eye on IW each turn and Sury's gold, cause you can certainly trade it for some soon. Heck, it may seem odd to you right now, but you could almost gift those techs to him at this point (just perspective), but definitely get as much gold as you can.

Don't see other trades this turn and as far as resources, routes are blocked except for Mansa. However, you do have another pig that can be hooked up and your overall health in cities is not a concern at this point. I might just go ahead and trade it to Mansa for 1g. You could get the crab now, but at this stage I like that extra gpt since health is not an issue. Other routes will open soon so other resource trade ops will open as well. Maybe some more happy.

I think I'd advise just going straight for CS after you trade for CoL. Your economy is getting better each turn and with such a juicy cottage cap, we want you in Bureau asap. Then we can gauge whether to go for Music line...which just to inform you is primarily about the free GS. Granted TGL is nice but you don't have marble and you are not IND. I would not concern myself with that wonder here. I mean you can try maybe in Debra or Lali, but you don't have forests anymore. Who knows, maybe when routes open up someone will have an extra marble now - not that common - but possible.

Anyway, the free Artist opens the opportunity for a Golden Age for its main benefit - 100% great person production. And Music ain't bad either as it is a prereq to Military Tradition.

Edit: Actually, tech Myst next..get that outta the way..it should be a 1t tech..then CS. Poly likely you can trade for at some point on the way.... (ugh..lol..Sury does not even have Myst)

Edit: Debra has no MP. I think move warrior from Addis to Debra, as Debra needs MP far more right now than a slow growth city like Addis. And you can't build anymore warriors at this stage.
 
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This session comprises only nine turns, but a good deal of events. But before

:lol: yes, the FISH ;). No reason to kill a great food resource . Deer/fish/iron is simply an excellent city. Not sure what FC means or what you thinking was there. Sorry, but there is no logic to the settling that spot.
:hammer2:,:hammer2:and:hammer2:. Stupid me! After I rambled about coastal vs non coastal I only focussed on the fat cross (FC. Or ist it BFC?) and completely forgot that settling non coastal means no lighthouse, no workboat from that city, no harbour, no ...

With trade route open to Mansa now, you will likely get Confused soon, which will be nice since Sury already adopted it.
Are you by any chance a fortune-teller with a magic crystal ball? Next turn Lalibela was proselytised. Of course I did not yet convert, because I cannot spread missionaries by now.

What else happened?
t100:
  • After researching CoL for one turn I was able to trade in curr for CoL from Mansa. This saved me 27 bucks that I otherwise had to trade in, too.
  • Qohaito was founded at the beach. :lol:
t101:
  • Artemis temple built elsewhere.
  • Mansa completed GS
  • Mysticism reasearched. CS will be next.
  • Mansa conquered Cherokee, a barb city in the NE neighbourhood of Surya with only one sword vs one archer. This was gambling, I think. My scouting chariot was a witness.
t102:
  • Surya built his 6th city.
  • Mansa founded Taoism in Cherokee, the city he just conquered far away from his home territory.
  • I'm still running 0% research to hold back my money until my academy will be founded.
  • Three Mali scouts are cruising through my territory.
  • And again :hammer2:, because my chop went to the wrong city, although i (should) know the mechanics by now.
  • Second pig hooked. But currently noone has money to trade in.
t104:
  • Oh no! Mansa requested that I convert to Confucianism. I gave in. I hoped to delay that until either CS completed or even to a golden age. One turn of anarchy.
  • Traded mysticism for 30G to Surya. Had to wait until so much money was available.
  • Trade route to Surya completed in four turns, because he built a road to his sheep. +6 foreign cities!
t105:
  • Colossus completed elsewhere.
  • GE completed elsewhere. I guess the path was oracle>metal casting>forge>engineer
  • traded fish for 3 GPT to Surya and pig for wine to Mansa. +1:) in all cities.
t106:
  • Now I'm the worst enemy of Louis XIV instead of Mansa.
  • Pyramids built (with a helping hand of the GE, I guess). This unknown guy now has 4WW(!) in his capital. Man, is he fast. Who is notorious for building WW all the time? Augustus Caesar? Huayna Capac?
  • Mansa converted to pacifism/hereditary rule. OK, he has monarchy, a tech I'm aiming for.
  • GS built in Gondar. Sent to my cap in a hurry to build an academy.
  • What a stroke of luck. Gems popped up on a mined hill near Aksum. I just need a road for a further +1:).
  • 2-fish city Matara founded.
t107:
  • Mansa is now again worst enemy of Louis. Is there an inner logic in that?
  • Mansa has construction available (and Süley, too). How did he do that? Lightbulbing, ultra-fast teching, trading with Süley, although that guy will not trade it in with me?
t108:
  • Eventually, my good old scout got killed far away from home. :sad: He was with me from the very beginning. He got boxed between three barb cities and the coast and couldn't avoid an archer, because he must not share a tile with a barb worker. :nono:
  • I assembled my two swords and my 2nd chariot as backup next to barb city Chinook. But I didn't plan ahead carefully enough. If I attack now (and win, odds are 68%), I either have to keep the city in an unfavourable spot or to destroy it. The latter would Surya give a chance to build a settler himself and settle that spot. Alternatively I can now start to build another settler and wait with my attack. I'm undecided.
With gems, wine and a religion, my cities can further expand. But which tiles shall I work (flat grassland most probably) and what shall I build: further cottages, farms? Most cities carry a food surplus, so food-neutral cottages sound resonable. Other ideas?

Spoiler t108 - My empire :

t108 empire north.JPGnorth t108 empire south.JPG south


Next settlement? Even after my lessons here I'm tempted to reach out far and go for the iron/wheat/whale spot in the NE. But more compact would be to settle 3E of Qohaito to get the fish.

A particular observation: You cannot carry over an OF, when you switch your city build to research or gold, right?

A new problem for my still meager micromanagement is the build in my cities. A good example to illustrate my dilemma is Yeha. I want to grow. A Settler/worker would stop growing, units require mainetance costs when completed, all buildings appear inappropriate, and failgold (is this the proper term?) for a WW seems ridiculous with only 1H available. I have put the overflow into a spy. My idea is that there is still plenty of land to scout and that a spy has a far better chance to survive in this barb polluted land mass than a scout.

Spoiler the build problem :

Yeha build - units.JPGunits Yeha build - buildings.JPG buildings


Is it already time to ponder on NW? Moai? Perhaps in Matara with 11 water tiles, but hard to build.

I know where Surya and Mansa are to find, but where are the other four civs? I still don't know two rivals. I'm not used to this kind of map (pangaea?), because I used to play fractal maps until recently. Maybe it's time for 1-2 trireme. In the meanwhile my scouting chariot cleared the mid of the visible landmass and returnded to Surya for a fresh checkup of my closest neighbour.
Spoiler t108 - the known world :

t108 - the rest of the world.JPG landmass t108 - world with ressources.JPG with ressources
 

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This session comprises only nine turns, but a good deal of events. But before


:hammer2:,:hammer2:and:hammer2:. Stupid me! After I rambled about coastal vs non coastal I only focussed on the fat cross (FC. Or ist it BFC?) and completely forgot that settling non coastal means no lighthouse, no workboat from that city, no harbour, no ...


Are you by any chance a fortune-teller with a magic crystal ball? Next turn Lalibela was proselytised. Of course I did not yet convert, because I cannot spread missionaries by now.

What else happened?
t100:
  • After researching CoL for one turn I was able to trade in curr for CoL from Mansa. This saved me 27 bucks that I otherwise had to trade in, too.
  • Qohaito was founded at the beach. :lol:
t101:
  • Artemis temple built elsewhere.
  • Mansa completed GS
  • Mysticism reasearched. CS will be next.
  • Mansa conquered Cherokee, a barb city in the NE neighbourhood of Surya with only one sword vs one archer. This was gambling, I think. My scouting chariot was a witness.
t102:
  • Surya built his 6th city.
  • Mansa founded Taoism in Cherokee, the city he just conquered far away from his home territory.
  • I'm still running 0% research to hold back my money until my academy will be founded.
  • Three Mali scouts are cruising through my territory.
  • And again :hammer2:, because my chop went to the wrong city, although i (should) know the mechanics by now.
  • Second pig hooked. But currently noone has money to trade in.
t104:
  • Oh no! Mansa requested that I convert to Confucianism. I gave in. I hoped to delay that until either CS completed or even to a golden age. One turn of anarchy.
  • Traded mysticism for 30G to Surya. Had to wait until so much money was available.
  • Trade route to Surya completed in four turns, because he built a road to his sheep. +6 foreign cities!
t105:
  • Colossus completed elsewhere.
  • GE completed elsewhere. I guess the path was oracle>metal casting>forge>engineer
  • traded fish for 3 GPT to Surya and pig for wine to Mansa. +1:) in all cities.
t106:
  • Now I'm the worst enemy of Louis XIV instead of Mansa.
  • Pyramids built (with a helping hand of the GE, I guess). This unknown guy now has 4WW(!) in his capital. Man, is he fast. Who is notorious for building WW all the time? Augustus Caesar? Huayna Capac?
  • Mansa converted to pacifism/hereditary rule. OK, he has monarchy, a tech I'm aiming for.
  • GS built in Gondar. Sent to my cap in a hurry to build an academy.
  • What a stroke of luck. Gems popped up on a mined hill near Aksum. I just need a road for a further +1:).
  • 2-fish city Matara founded.
t107:
  • Mansa is now again worst enemy of Louis. Is there an inner logic in that?
  • Mansa has construction available (and Süley, too). How did he do that? Lightbulbing, ultra-fast teching, trading with Süley, although that guy will not trade it in with me?
t108:
  • Eventually, my good old scout got killed far away from home. :sad: He was with me from the very beginning. He got boxed between three barb cities and the coast and couldn't avoid an archer, because he must not share a tile with a barb worker. :nono:
  • I assembled my two swords and my 2nd chariot as backup next to barb city Chinook. But I didn't plan ahead carefully enough. If I attack now (and win, odds are 68%), I either have to keep the city in an unfavourable spot or to destroy it. The latter would Surya give a chance to build a settler himself and settle that spot. Alternatively I can now start to build another settler and wait with my attack. I'm undecided.
With gems, wine and a religion, my cities can further expand. But which tiles shall I work (flat grassland most probably) and what shall I build: further cottages, farms? Most cities carry a food surplus, so food-neutral cottages sound resonable. Other ideas?

Spoiler t108 - My empire :


Next settlement? Even after my lessons here I'm tempted to reach out far and go for the iron/wheat/whale spot in the NE. But more compact would be to settle 3E of Qohaito to get the fish.

A particular observation: You cannot carry over an OF, when you switch your city build to research or gold, right?

A new problem for my still meager micromanagement is the build in my cities. A good example to illustrate my dilemma is Yeha. I want to grow. A Settler/worker would stop growing, units require mainetance costs when completed, all buildings appear inappropriate, and failgold (is this the proper term?) for a WW seems ridiculous with only 1H available. I have put the overflow into a spy. My idea is that there is still plenty of land to scout and that a spy has a far better chance to survive in this barb polluted land mass than a scout.

Spoiler the build problem :


Is it already time to ponder on NW? Moai? Perhaps in Matara with 11 water tiles, but hard to build.

I know where Surya and Mansa are to find, but where are the other four civs? I still don't know two rivals. I'm not used to this kind of map (pangaea?), because I used to play fractal maps until recently. Maybe it's time for 1-2 trireme. In the meanwhile my scouting chariot cleared the mid of the visible landmass and returnded to Surya for a fresh checkup of my closest neighbour.
Spoiler t108 - the known world :

Good plays, except why are you building courthouses that will literally save you 1-2gpt each? Just build wealth.
 
Are you by any chance a fortune-teller with a magic crystal ball?

Ha..well, you only had trade routes with him at the time, and trade routes increase religion spread, so it seemed inevitable you would get Confused. I think accepting his request was the right call here, since Sury adopted it too.

Some points:

1) Things look good. Your economy is great. No need for CHs. You are Org so they are cheap, but really you are not going to build these near cap and definitely not in the cap. As to answer one of your questions, you can always build wealth if nothing important to build

2) Yep..wbs from Debra for Matara is good...generally always build them in nearby older cities that have the production if you can't chop them (like Qohaito). Matara's production will mainly come from whipping although it can share horses at times.

I would whip WB next turn into a new WB, then LH in Debra

By the way, Debra should be working 2 scientists instead of unimproved tiles

3) After worker roads gems (yes, nice pop!) get him over to Gondar to chain farm from lake for wheat. I'd get one of those workers from Adulis back toward home to help out there.

4) Most cities will just grow in to scientists. Otherwise for most cities you are going to ignore plains tiles other than chaining like Gondar. Cottage cities are obvious cottage cities. Plains could get workshops later. You could cottage the rest of the green tiles that Aksum can work or just workshop them later.

5) Aksum will look to take on its other cottages after Bureau is in, continuing to grow to happy cap (which will also increase later when you trade fo Monarchy)

6) Might as well trade IW to Sury for 20g...IW is old news at this point and better you get a little gold out of it than he finish it or get some trade.

7) Keep eye on France getting some good gold in his bank to trade Maths or Alpha (don't worry about WE situation with Mansa. You've known Mansa long enough now that he probably won't care, and even if you get like a -1 malus or so, you are in his religion)

8) Eh..barb city you might as well just keep , especially if it has a free Granary. Otherwise, you would want a settler in place the turn you raze the city, since Sury likely has one waiting in the wings to pounce. But the spot is still fine where it is.

9) Unless you are ready to attack now, I would avoid choking the barb city, i.e., standing troops adjacent to city. Barbs more inclined to produce more archers

10) Good news is Mansa did not go Aesths line yet ...he often does at some point. So finish CS then switch to Bureau...then Music line. Poly>Aesths>Lit>Music. You might tech PH along the way sooner than later to open up Monarchy trade for like Currency. However, after finishing Poly you might be able to get Monotheism from someone in trade which also opens up Monarchy.

11) You have more cities you could settle, but you are in a great position here with this empire to do anything you want do. Pretty good tech rate for this timeframe and it will only get better

edit: No clue on missing AIs. This is a shuffle type map which I don't play. I think it creates some mix of other map types or something. There might be another continent.
 
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Good plays, except why are you building courthouses that will literally save you 1-2gpt each? Just build wealth.
Your economy is great. No need for CHs. You are Org so they are cheap, but really you are not going to build these near cap and definitely not in the cap. As to answer one of your questions, you can always build wealth if nothing important to build
I'm not objecting to the unifom conclusion of two pro-players, but I will try to convince myself (and perhaps you, too) that the alternative CH isn't bad per se. I have to confess that I played another session of seven turns before I read your messages and made my reasoning afterwards. In other words: I'm trying to avoid re-playing my session, especially as I was already building CH in several of my cities.
  • My cities don't get much hammers and would therefore produce only moderate wealth
  • CH add 2 spypoints each. This would allow me to considerably enhance my intelligence.
  • I can carry over OF to CH, but not to wealth.
  • I can generate OF when I build cheap CH.
  • Wealth is only benefitial when I don't build something, the CH bonus always is.
I made a rough calculation of my current situation. Wealth in all my cities would generate 28 gpt, CH would generate 17.3 gpt and 18 spypoints/turn. I hope that my reasoning makes sense, but if not, I'm prepared to repeat my previous session.

I'm glad to see that I considered most of lymond's advices during my last session before I read it. It seems that I'm improving. I was really amazed to see the leaps in commerce after my academy was built and after I switched to bureaucracy. Currently I'm cruising with ease through my tech path. My scouting chariot captured a barb worker just after he localised the Ottomans. Strange that I haven't yet spotted a foreign galley/WB as opposite to most of my previous games (on fractal).

I fiddled about attacking the barb city to get a feeling for this. I'm glad that I brought my chariot along together with my two swords. Barb city is defended by two archers on a plain desert tile, but depending on the actual turn, the result varied from an easy victory to a crushing defeat. The culmination was reached, when Surya turned up with an axe (combat 1) and two pikes (combat 1 fo one of them). Surya's archer was already waiting together with me. This put me in zugzwang. I attacked and was trashed thoroughly. Therefore I reloaded and observed Surya's troops victorious attacking across a river. His axe was on 4.1HP afterwards, the other three haven't got the slightest scratch. How real is this?
I decided to rewind and to attack immediately at the beginning of my session. A pity that I cannot see what is already built inside of a conquered city, when I have to decide if I keep it or raze it. It had nothing inside, so I razed it for 78g. This forced me to switch my plans (as stated in my previous message). Debre is fast-building a settler, and I hope to arrive before Surya's settler will appear. (Keeping my fingers crossed).

I teched CS, Poly, PH to open monarchy. In that time Mansa completed theology and is currently researching metal casting. Now I have the choice to trade in CoL for monarchy and 20g from Süley or CS for monarchy, construction and 50g from Mansa. My tech pace is high, therefore I'm undecided.

After music, I'd like to spread Confucianism in my empire for the +1:) . The options are monasteries via meditation or OR via monotheism: Both techs would require one turn only. I'm reluctant to trade them. At the moment my favoured sequence is to postpone monarchy until the GA and mono, start a golden age and switch to monarchy and OR simultaneously, then spread Confucianism.
 

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I'm not objecting to the unifom conclusion of two pro-players
I'm not a pro-player, but I'd avoid building courthouses as well, especially close to your capital. To contradict your reasoning:

  • OF is stored when you build wealth (try it!)
  • Spy points are only useful when really going for a spy economy. In that case generating spy points with the slider is way more efficient
  • Building wealth is beneficial now, CH needs time to pay back its investment. Figure out when the break-even point will be
 
My cities don't get much hammers and would therefore produce only moderate wealth
Well, it is still something. I'll mention this again in summary below, but it's more about the NOW. You are still using hammers to build something for several turns that you really don't need
CH add 2 spypoints each. This would allow me to considerably enhance my intelligence.
If you really need more EP temporarily you can always raise the EP slider a tad
I can carry over OF to CH, but not to wealth.
But you can hold OF by building wealth or research
I can generate OF when I build cheap CH.
Not sure exactly what you mean...you may or may not get a little OF, as you would with any build...major OF comes from whipping
Wealth is only benefitial when I don't build something, the CH bonus always is.
Not really a strong argument here with this game..Again, is more about the NOW...every turn counts
I made a rough calculation of my current situation. Wealth in all my cities would generate 28 gpt, CH would generate 17.3 gpt and 18 spypoints/turn. I hope that my reasoning makes sense, but if not, I'm prepared to repeat my previous session.

It's good that you are thinking at this level. I certainly commend you on doing the math and working things out this way. But spy points are not something to be concerned about with this game. Generally, you will use EP passively as you have been doing so far, unless as Jarno mentioned, you are playing an EP economy, which is very special way to play the game. Spy points are in no way game breaking. So point is, throw that out of the equation. Again, it's about the now. The Wealth you are building now is allowing you to research faster. CH take turns to build and those are turns not doing something more important or building wealth. The things you do NOW snowball in the LATER.

With that said, I don't totally discount building cheaper ORG CHs at least in some cities. In your cap is very wasteful though.

I'm glad to see that I considered most of lymond's advices during my last session before I read it. It seems that I'm improving. I was really amazed to see the leaps in commerce after my academy was built and after I switched to bureaucracy. Currently I'm cruising with ease through my tech path. My scouting chariot captured a barb worker just after he localised the Ottomans. Strange that I haven't yet spotted a foreign galley/WB as opposite to most of my previous games (on fractal).

Yep, finally located the Ottos. You might hover that chariot around the Ottos to try to snipe that barb city (likely liberate to Ottos are whatever the prompt says, if you do..too far away now), but also do more scouting around until AI units arrive that can attempt to take the barb city

Yes, you are definitely improving in some areas and grasping a lot of these concepts

Don't get too over confident though. Lot's of work to do here, so keep the focus.

I fiddled about attacking the barb city to get a feeling for this. I'm glad that I brought my chariot along together with my two swords. Barb city is defended by two archers on a plain desert tile, but depending on the actual turn, the result varied from an easy victory to a crushing defeat. The culmination was reached, when Surya turned up with an axe (combat 1) and two pikes (combat 1 fo one of them). Surya's archer was already waiting together with me. This put me in zugzwang. I attacked and was trashed thoroughly. Therefore I reloaded and observed Surya's troops victorious attacking across a river. His axe was on 4.1HP afterwards, the other three haven't got the slightest scratch. How real is this?
I decided to rewind and to attack immediately at the beginning of my session. A pity that I cannot see what is already built inside of a conquered city, when I have to decide if I keep it or raze it. It had nothing inside, so I razed it for 78g. This forced me to switch my plans (as stated in my previous message). Debre is fast-building a settler, and I hope to arrive before Surya's settler will appear. (Keeping my fingers crossed).

RNG can change within a turn based on other actions. AIs get a bonus on barbs.

Well, technically you can see what is in a city..at least some things by looking at it on the map. Like wonders. I don't know what the granary building looks like..ha..never thought about it. Regardless, the building a city keeps after conquered is subject to RNG, so no guarantee you will keep all or any buildings.

I would have just kept the city myself regardless, but maybe you will get your settler there in time. I suspect Sury had a settler sitting around ready to pounce, so you may not get there in time. Too bad though you had to waste turns on a new settler now for that spot, when Debra could have finished second WB for Matara and get a LH.

Yep, as I discussed earlier, I liked settling on the desert gold for that spot, since it gives that city all the FPs, which can be cottaged or even watermilled later.

I teched CS, Poly, PH to open monarchy. In that time Mansa completed theology and is currently researching metal casting. Now I have the choice to trade in CoL for monarchy and 20g from Süley or CS for monarchy, construction and 50g from Mansa. My tech pace is high, therefore I'm undecided.

Trade Currency for Monarchy from Sullie (Reasons...CoL is a gateway tech that once someone discovers, the other AIs tend to avoid for quite a while, so you may get some value for it later. Currency on the other hand has an indirect benefit to you by trading it as it give the AIs more trade routes. Yeah, that boosts them some, but also opens up more foreign trade routes for your cities. I usually feel fine trading Currency if the monopoly is gone anyway)

Definitely do not trade CS for anything right now. You have a monopoly on it and it is a powerful tech. Only consider trading it if you see Mansa teching it.

After music, I'd like to spread Confucianism in my empire for the +1:) . The options are monasteries via meditation or OR via monotheism: Both techs would require one turn only. I'm reluctant to trade them. At the moment my favoured sequence is to postpone monarchy until the GA and mono, start a golden age and switch to monarchy and OR simultaneously, then spread Confucianism.

Yes, great thinking here. I would hold the civic switches for the golden age. You will also temporarily go into Caste System for the GA. You can easily tech Mono in 1t now, but maybe a trade OP will open for it between now and Music, which would be nice. No need to tech Meditation yet, and OR will allow you to build some mishes later. Hopefully, you will still get some free spread, but OR is a nice civic, so I would spread the religion. Pacifism would be great for the GA too, but you will not have a GS in time for bulb nor the religion spread to make use of it for this GA.

Points:

1) I would still trade IW to Sury for his gold..very old tech now

2) Go weight 5 on Sury with 1 weight on Mansa. I think that will give you enough points for visi on Sury again, while keep some going on Mansa. Yeah, Mansa still has not focused any EP on you, but he will. Then split the weight between Sury and Mansa or adjust as needed against what Sury does. AIs will often change there focus amount.

3) Make sure you are running scientists where you can over unimproved, like Yeha. And really Debra too, but I see you need to work the tile to finish settler this turn. Otherwise most cities should focus growth as much as possible in lead up to the Golden Age (when you max specialists via Caste). Lali should not be working iron..switch iron to coast for more food..and keep Lali growing for now.

4) You can spare one worker on Addis with Monarchy trade this turn to start connect those wines.

5) Adulis should not have lost all its workers. At least one to finish up the cottages there.

6) I see you are building spies. Not really necessary but you can use them for spy defense. Always keep one in your capital, and maybe a border city (Addis and Adulis)

7) Beg 50g from Mansa this turn. Begs are a thing! You can do this about every 20t or so. Amount may very depending on how long you've known an AI and how much you previously begged, but 30g to 60g is a good range of reference. (Also, note that successful begs give a peace treaty. Not relevant here, but can be nice trick you if see an AI in fist mode or with a nice stack outside your borders)

--If Sury gets aroung 50 or 60g at some point soon, beg for it

8) Might as well trade fish to Mansa for crab. You could just get the 1g, but you want cities growing as much as possible heading into the Golden age, so health could become a concern.

9) Next turn, when Aksum is then 1t from growth, switch both scientists to FPs...best ones from Yeha and Lali. Lali can use coastal tiles in exchange and Yeha just adjust as needed to keep growth or not starve. Yeha looks like it will get a green farm soon there.

Aksum really should have been working these when you switch to Bureau, but this also increases the food surplus in the city so growth will be even faster next turn. Aksum will get more happy from wine and later religion, but can grow back into scientists, as we do want to get at least one more GS there during golden age since so many GPPs in that city. But after GA Aksum will mainly focus on working all its commerce, which is being boosted dramatically by Bureaucracy.

Lastly, whip CH in Adulis this turn..just get it done with...but otherwise in lead up to GA, you want cities to grow so I would avoid whipping as much as possible so that you can max specialists during GA. You are no prepping for war and most cities are just about fine on infra. Matara can whip Gran in a couple of turn, but otherwise grow grow...get another WB from Debra asap. Debra can slow build LH easily after that.

oh..Qoh...next turn switch from iron to FP at growth point to max food. (I woulda been getting that fast Library first over CH..but oh well..you'll get both fast regardless) Like mentioned, Qoh should max growth up to GA.

and very lastly, always listen to the lady below...she's a pro ;)

ack..edit: One thing I want to mention is that generally building Wealth is better than Research. Reason is that by this point you get far more research from your slider than hammers. Wealth allows you to max gold generation for slider. The exception might be at times when you come into tremendous amounts of gold via trade missions, tech trades, fail gold or whaever, allowing one to focus on research building for a time. Otherwise, just build Wealth if a city has nothing pressing at the moment
 
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Imo you are not wrong with getting some 60h courthouses overall,
on Emp everything is still very forgiving (look how behind with city # and so those AIs are already :)),
but on Imm or Deity you might really want them with 10 cities.
Takes only ~20t to pay back if cities cost 5gpt, but always consider whipping them if you have 0 whip anger in a city and are working 1 or even more questionable tiles.

Some free spy points are good when you want to see what AIs are teching without using your slider,
that also becomes more important on Imm+ where they have more for trade.

Building wealth, research or CHs can be balanced with how important your next tech is,
CS i.e. boosts your capital and gains more gold / commerce than CHs overall, so building research for 1 turn faster CS (if it works out) can be best during that time.

Or if you want a tech badly for trading with AIs, every turn can also matter.
Those are details you can learn when playing with some "turn by turn pressure" (deity can be used as example again),
and urgency thinking starts to build ~~
 
Just in between! I just returned from a dinner with my family, immediately checked this thread and found your replies. I am so grateful for your advices, for your encouragement, for taking your time and for your patience. I always enjoyed playing Civ, even in its very beginning, but this session is by far the most entertaining and instructive one I ever had. The depth and the complexity are amazing and motivating. In this regard it resembles my favourite game since my youth, chess.
I'd like to especially thank you lymond for being such a great coach! I know my postings are quite extensive, but you always try to cover all my points and in addition to point me to the things I overlooked as well as to make me aware of the big picture. I wonder who of us spent more time on this game, you or me?
 
In this session I stopped at turn 120. Music was completed this turn and the GA appeared in my cap. Another GA showed up simultaneously in the Mali empire. Pacifism? Why a GA? One turn before I succeeded in founding Hawulti on the gold after I captured and razed the barb city some turns before. Surya had built a settler, too, but I was faster. Next turn mono is available for OR, and I'll be able to spread Confucianism for +1 :) .Wine will be hooked up next turn. After that I will cancel the trade pig for wine with Mansa. Perhaps I can make a good deal afterwards.

Last turn I was also able to trade for ivory from Surya. Alas the price was high: gold and iron. But my cities shall grow further. Monarchy is waiting for the GA. Debre built LH and WB and is currently builing another settler for further NE expansion. The other cities are growing except Addis and Yeha.

My scouting chariot went south and met Darius from Persia, who is trailing the ranking. Now only one civ is unknown, the one with five WW in its capital. The landmass is huge, partly because of a high sea level. But is this by chance a pangaea map? I haven't played such a map before.

Strange! I can trade ressources with Süley and Darius, but I there are no foreign trade routes from my cities to theirs.

In the meanwhile Mansa researched theology and is now on the aesthetics path. He would trade four "advanced" techs, namely calendar, construction, theology and philosophy (with meditation!). Süley and Surya are researching calendar. I was too late to trade in math with Louis. I wonder if I should trade alpha for a price to improve my relations with him.

If I understand correctly what lymond has in mind, then my path is
>Mono
>GA by sacrifying the GA
>switch civics to monarchy, OR, Caste for 7-8 turns
>put as many scientists in my main cities for the GPP (~5 in Aksum, 3-4 in Gondar, ~3 in Laili, 2-3 in Yeha, 3-4 in Adulis)
>switch back to slavery just in time

This will net me 1 GS and the next will already be close. Debre shall continue building settlers/workers, Qohaito, Matara, Hawulti shall grow. Workers shall improve green, cottage FP and hook up wine. The GS, should they lightbulb the next techs? An alternative would be one city going for a GM for a trade mission.

Now NW like Moai and NE (Aksum) are possible as well as WW like TGL or Parthenon. But I think this is rather difficult for me to build. I have low poduction, no marble or stone, no forge and I'm not industrious. In general I'm not strong production-wise, chopping is nearly exhausted, and whipping seems to be hardly applicable for big builds like NW/WW. A production city is not very helpful for my consideration, because I have to build the NW/WW in place. Perhaps I could try to use OF of 2pop whips (put 4H into an axe), but this is usually 29H maximum for 10 turns. How do I improve my production and is this necessary at the moment? Do I overlook something?

IMHO possible tech paths from here could be:
Military approach: construction>metal casting>machinery>guilds(knights) and HB riding in between
Sea faring approach: metal casting>machinery>compass>optics> caravels
Increasing my economy: philosophy (with medi, pacifism, possible trade with Mansa)>paper>education (Oxford in Aksum)>liberalism(free tech)>economics(GM)

I'm in favour of the last approach with the possible bottleneck of building enough universities for Oxford. I already have a stong economy and I would further increase it this way. Pacifism would perfectly fit due to my weak military.
OTOH are wars worth to fight with all civs separated by deserts? Surya's land looks promising with all these grass tiles, but fighting one rival would slow down my progress for some time, while the others could catch up. In addition, as long as I don't know Mr. WW-builder I'd better be careful. The exploration approach seems inappropriate on a pangaea-like map.

At last I want to clarify my reasoning about CH. I feel some of my points were a bit imprecise.

is more about the NOW...every turn counts
I agree. As I said, I just wanted to point out that building CH isn't bad per se, but had some pros as well.

But you can hold OF by building wealth or research
This is really an important piece of information. I didn't know that. I only realised that my OF hammers vanished when I switched from a build to wealth/research (and was ... ahem ... disappointed).

you may or may not get a little OF, as you would with any build...major OF comes from whipping
This is exactly what I meant. The possibility of whipping when I'm building. I don't have this possibility when I'm running wealth/research.

Takes only ~20t to pay back if cities cost 5gpt, but always consider whipping them if you have 0 whip anger in a city and are working 1 or even more questionable tiles.
Yes! I'd made a calculation (an estimation, tbh): 5H vs 2gpt, 8t to build a CH = 20t to catch up. And yes, I'd tried to utilize a 2 pop whip in my fast growing cities to profit from overflow as well.

Some free spy points are good when you want to see what AIs are teching without using your slider,
This is what I had in mind. I want to know what my rivals are researching and currently I have a time frame for this in my game, before they catch up.
Jarno mentioned spy economy, but this is not what I meant. I don't know it and it is currently too sophisticated for me.
 

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Things are looking real good here. I'l start off with a couple of pointers based on current save, since there is not much to add - although very important stuff indeed. Then follow with responses to your prior discussion/questions:

1) Next turn you will start a golden age. I'd like a little more growth in cities, but time is now and you have cities that should net you at least 2 or 3 GS during the GA, maybe 4 or at least some to arrive later. The point though is that a GA boosts GPP by 100%, so it is a great time to focus on producing as many GSs as you can for bulbing strategies...usually Lib path.

--note that Pacifism is nice to run too, but not always available for you if you don't have time to tech it or bulb it leading up to GA. And well, you don't have really any religion spread at all to take advantage of it at this time.

2) Debra should not start a settler as you want to emphasize growth leading up to GA, which is.. well ....next turn. You can get another pop this turn.

3) Next turn switch to HR (obvious)>Caste System>OR (mainly to build mishes but as religion spreads you will obviously get the benefit of the civic) Also, Sury likes OR.

4) Now here's the deal on the LIb path. LIb is opened by Philo and Edu. Lib is bulbable with those techs in place and not having teched Machinery (Machinery opens Printing Press which supercedes Lib on the bulb priority list)

5) Generally, I will self-tech Paper and Philo, and double-bulb Edu and part-bulb Lib. But it depends on how many GSs I generate. I might bulb Philo as well. Double-bulb Edu again depends on GS production and overall tech rate. You can start teching Edu instead and bulb along the way. (Note: Avoid exceeding the bulb amount at the time and the beakers put into a tech like Edu which always takes more than 1 GS. Bulbing does not create beaker overflow when bulbing out right unless one bulbs along the way to finishing a tech. In other words, unless double-bulbing Edu, which is okay, avoid single builbing if you ..say...part teched Edu and the bulb will finish the tech that turn..you will lose some beakers) That may be a bit confusing, but I can explain more later if so. Note that you can see the beakers from a GS bulb by hovering over the bulb icon..this tends to fluctuate based on tech rate..and tends to grow higher during golden ages since tech rate is increased dramatically.

6) Probably time to really think about your goal here. Do you want to win by Domination/Conquest, or go the Diplo/Space route. The latter does not in anyway preclude fighting wars and gaining more land though. Note that a typical high level approach is to bulb ones way to Lib Military Tradition for Curs, which are one of the best units in the game for high level conquest. An alternate approach may be to hold Lib for something like Steel for cannons. Cannons would marry quite nicely with Oromos for some time, although slower than Curs, eventually converting to Rifles/Cannons.

-to lib Steel you need to just tech Gunpowder (opened by Edu or Guilds, but you will get Edu) and Chemistry (Chemistry can be part bulb if you get enough GSs to do so). Curs would need just Nationalism (to open MT) and then Gunpowder and HBR (strange that no AIs have HBR yet)

One point on Curs vs. Oromos/Rifles and Cannons, is that..say..you decide to hit Sury first here. Although Curs can be successful against him, he will likely have his UU, which can be annoying for Curs. It's not that Curs can't be successful against some Elies in general, but there is no defensive counter to protect the Curs before attack(edit: with Balistas). Sury will always try to hit you with his Balistas (which attack any mounted unit in a stack first..that IS its unique ability) and he will win some of those attacks.

Another note, Mansa, though not that small, is a prime candidate for peace vassaling. If you stay in his religion, and I don't see why not, plus the continued boost of resource trades and occasional tech trade or gifts, he will likely be Friendly in near future. Regardless, he can cap to you at Pleased. So once your power rating starts going up later (right now it is .7 but keep an eye out when it hits the 1.5 or higher range), keep an eye on peace vassaling him. He may very well simply bend the knee to you on his own. He's a great vassal obviously. Great techer and you can direct his tech path.

7) Other than that, not much to add in general. Adulis needs some worker love. Addis definitely does not need two works there. Regardless, Adulis might as well run one scientists now - does not change growth time. Not sure if you will get a GS in Adulis short term, but you can grow into another for Golden Age in two turns and then run more as well there. May not be short term, but you might run a GA later. All those points earned across all your cities during this upcoming GA may not produce great people now, but can and will in a subsequent Golden Age.

You are in an extremely good position here. You are starting your push to the Lib path in the very early ADs, which is not bad. The AIs do not seem to be teching all the great - this is emperor - but they will get faster mark my word.

--well, that was a little more stuff that I thought ..ugh..so, on to you previous points -

Another GA showed up simultaneously in the Mali empire.

Only explanation is that Mansa has been in Caste System, which allows running artists. He probably ran an artist in some newer cities for border popping and then ended up generating an artist later regardless of what specialists he was running because some artists points were generated earlier getting a border pop.

Glad you beat Sury on the barb city. Is a better spot. I'm almost tempted to watermill any eligible fps. Ofc, you don't have machinery yet. Cottages are fine though (ack.forget that city terraforms fp to desert tile..argh..that tile can still be watermilled later though and with State Property not too bad)

Alas the price was high: gold and iron

Eh..not great..but not bad short term. Sury does have iron so he will cancel that trade after 10 turns and after he improves his own iron. However, for Ivory generally two normal health or happy resources will work, so like fish and gold later. Ivory's value as a strat resource decreases over time.

I've don't recall ever playing shuffle. No clue what this map really is, but likely a hodepodge over other things. There could be a separate landmass on the map with an isolated AI. Or sometimes just a far away AI hates its neighbor who's borders are blocking it from scouting around a far ways.

I'm not sure the exact mechanic or code behind routes that facilitates this particular feature, but resource trades can sometimes be enabled even though trade routes are not open yet. You will even see this very early game.

Ah.that reminds me. You might be able to trade for Philo with Mansa. That would be helpful. Maybe part tech if you don't have enough. Likely CS will be part of that trade, the question is whether you want to do so yet, but once Mansa starts teching CS, which could be at any time soon, he's gonna get it anyway.

Keep an eye on alpha trade to Louie. He is WE with Mansa, but I don't think Mansa would care much at this point. Your thinking is right here. Maybe you can get a little more gold for it. Then again, he could get it at any moment. It's a judgement call, but there is nothing wrong at this point with just trading it for the gold.

Yes, that outline looks good. I might go Med next to open PHilo, so see if you can get a trade for it. Also, with running scientists during GA do not be afraid to starve your cities during the process using the stored food...usually not to shrink the city, but just to max scientists as long as you can in each city. (check on Aesths to Sullie next turn for Med...I don't want to kick that off this turn as Mansa may be teching it and if Sullie gets it this turn then Mansa may trade something like Calendar for it...it's the one downside of Mansa...yeah, he trades anything to you, but he trades with ANYONE) I'd like to hold on Aesths to see if I can use as a chip in the Philo trade.

I would run only GSs for now. GMs are actually very valuable to focus later game as the GS bulbing becomes less optimal, while gold becomes immensely valuable.

I've meant to address this earlier, but I would not concern yourself with wonders or national wonders at this time. You have no stone or marble, nor are you IND. It's just a distraction. Only thing I would like possibly short term is HE somewhere nice, but that is not activated yet nor will it be until you start fighting.

Ha..I'm in favor of the last approach as well, simply as that is in line with what I outlined for you above. The critical thing here is to understand bulbing and what it means, and to be judicious about it. (Note: As mentioned, Pacifism is only powerful with religion spread..it is great during a GA but you don't have the religion spread now. It is generally only used temporarily during a Golden AGe, or if Spiritual)

Right now, I see no concern about the unknown AI.

You will be able to trade for maps soon.

I won't belabor discussion on CH, but again, in general you are not going to build these in cities nearby your cap. Maybe in in far away cities. Often you will capture CHs later in enemy cities, which is nice, but I don't mind whipping those cities if I truly feel I need a CH. Keep in mind that CHs are far more expensive when you are not ORG.


The possibility of whipping when I'm building. I don't have this possibility when I'm running wealth/research.

Well true, but then there is no point in whipping useless stuff. Sometimes the building of wealth is just simply better and letting your cities grow for the time being, like leading up to a GA or in lead up to war preparation so you can use that growth to whip out fast armies ( you will indeed get OF then.ha)

Good job with the spy points..ha. You won't always have so many to work with. Note that later game AIs tend to build spy buildings ..heck they tend to build everything..so it will be much harder to maintain ep levels. But early game is when it matters. Later you will just kill everyone anyway..ha
 
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I have shadowed this game for the first 50 turns without map knowledge, as the start looked pretty cool. I do love a sweet FP capital :love:

First my thoughts about settling and such outside spoilers, since it is based on T0 information.

From fog-gazing in-game, it's possible to see that there is coast in the north by the river mouth, and a likely lake in the south. I couldn't see any waves, so thought it was a lake. We can see tundra in the north, so moving the scout that way wasn't very tempting. Believe I moved him west (onto the PH) instead of south, to check out the coast.

Settling decision is between SIP and 1N I think. 1N was a little tempting, but that would claim 9 FPs (2N 1E of the settler must also be a FP), which means the capital will get +3 :yuck:. Not great. SIP gets 7 FPs, which is more than enough. I therefore decided to settle in place. Another benefit with that is that the corn will get auto-irrigated (without any more farms) once we get Civil Service. And the worker can start farming it the same turn he comes out.

Having settled, so putting info up to T50 (including T50 map) in spoilers:
Spoiler :
The scout moving west saw wheat, which also means that settling 1N would have ruined the possible city spot on the tundra. The scout then moved further west as there was a slight extension into the ocean, and noticed fish. Another good backfiller location for later. Then he moved south along the coast, before moving east, and after nearly dying to a lion, we see a great spot for later with two golds and more FPs.

I've not read the rest of the thread yet, so don't know what tech choices were ultimately chosen. Farming first is obvious, then we have a choice between going BW or Wheel-Pottery. I picked the latter. We don't need BW for any chopping here, enough other tiles to improve. Slavery is great for whipping out that first settler at size 4, though. Instead, I preferred to go for wheel and pottery so we can start working some cottages early.

Put a road on the corn when the worker had improved it, as we will need the health soon enough, which also enabled him to move onto the riverside green hill in one turn and improve that. Once he was done, Pottery was in, and he improved two floodplains, which could also be worked from the city by the pigs. Therefore, after Pottery, I went for AH instead of BW. It's a good city location that can help with capital cottages. After that it was finally time for BW. The second settler was 2-popped from the capital at size 4, and settled a city further east. Timing turned out to be pretty sweet there, as due to the creative trait the border expanded early, meaning the worker could improve the wheat for that city. It has improved food the instant it was settled.

Sadly the Woodie2 scout ran into a barb archer in the far east and died this very turn. He never came across Sury's borders, but at least a good deal of the coast is unfogged. Maybe he should have went in a different direction, but some decisions had to be based on barb threats, and for future sailing trade routes it's usually a decent idea to unfog the coast. He could have been used as a fogbuster too.

Map situation in T50.
Spoiler :
Think the warrior is safe from the bear. Good thing it wasn't a barb warrior/archer.
City 2 grows to size 4 next turn, so then we can whip something. I'm thinking another worker instead of the granary or settler. I just have the initial worker, and I'd need more warriors for safety before settling another city. Down towards the gold is tempting, or possibly the deer-FP location. It doesn't show in this screenshot, but there are some good locations nearby for backfilling, including a double-fish up north. But all those should be for later as it's more important to grab land towards the east. Sury is usually good at spamming cities, and it's possible this is a semi-isolation map. Don't think so actually, because I think Sury was putting EPs on somebody else early on, as he had suspiciously few points on me until he started running the slider.

As you can see I'm doing Writing now, which will be in before we run out of money. Cheaply double-whipping a library might then be an option. Haven't chopped yet, and it may be best to only chop one forest from the capital, so it still gets +2 :health:. A hooked up pig will help slightly, though.


I am attaching the T50 save as well, just in the odd chance this is a different approach to what others have played or suggested.

Edit: Continuing a bit further to T78, with 5 cities and Alpha. Hopefully this can be helpful as well.
Spoiler :
Eventually met Louis, but nobody else. Strange continent. They have met somebody else, so hopefully he/she finds us soon. Can't go out exploring myself as it's more important to fog-bust.

Settled the fourth city by the gold, as I needed more happiness to grow on more cottages, and the commerce for research. After Writing I went for Alpha, which was just completed. Next up will be Currency. Nobody has Iron Working yet, incredibly enough, so it's tempting to do it myself. Not comfortable this deep into the game and relying only on warriors. But if I take the settler soon done and parks him on the double-fish and horse spot, maybe we'll be okay. Fog-busting pretty well by now, but any barb coming our way will be bad news really. Famous last words? :scan: *gulp*

 

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Think this should be the last update as our games will probably differ more and more (I've not read all your updates yet due to wanting to play the map blind, but I will). T108 and Civil Service is in. 9 cities, and one more in two turns. Fun map, and it looks very unusual so far.
Spoiler :
It really almost was "famous last words". Two barb axes invaded from the east.



A turn or two after the last update Mansa came and said hello, and I was able to get IW from him (the others didn't have it). Also traded for Archery, ignoring the likely early "We fear you are too advanced" trade lock-out. I simply needed it, as this situation shows. Also got Math from Mansa, which means the bloke 1W of Addis was able to get out an Axe in time. Lalibela 2-popped another Axe (plus a follow-up). The barbs attacked different cities (actually forked me, the buggars!), and thankfully we won both fights (at 4% and 11% for the barbs, which was better odds for us than I expected).

After this it was calm, and I could use the new fancy units to more safely explore. Some more decent sites nearby, despite an awful lot of desert. Sury has been surprisingly slow to expand, and I see he has run into a nasty bug with the game. I've seen it before. He has three clams near his capital, but in a lake. He has built a lighthouse there, but no fishing boats. He should be able to build fishing boats too, but hasn't done that for some reason. That is the bug. I'm 99% sure I captured a capital like that way, way back, and was able to build fishing boats for it.

This picture doesn't show everything north or south, but the main stuff. There is a city south by the golds, which I had to get to before Sury stole the whole thing. He surprised me by suddenly plopping down a city east of the golds. Before then I had no idea where he was located. There is also a city further north, for the double-fish. The backfiller fish west of our capital was settled this turn, so very late, but I had to prioritise other stuff, and postponed it a bit to get to CS before running out of gold.


From here on in it's probably time to think about killing off Sury, and checking out the rest of the land. But with so much land to expand into, I think it made best sense to expand peacefully up to 1AD or so.
 

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Haven't read anything on the third page yet, and I see the scrollbar is veeeery small, so there is a little to read, haha :D I just wanted to get a few things off my chest while it's fresh on my mind.

First of all, I totally understand all this advice can be very overwhelming. I remember it myself when I started out, and posted similar threads where I too got fantastic feedback from the likes of @Seraiel and others. Thing is, it was too much to "take in". Unlike the inferior newer games, Civilization 4 is a very complex and deep game, and the balance can be tricky. So easy to crash the economy. But the most important thing is that you are willing to learn, and are taking the advice on board. It's difficult to instantly apply it all - have no worries. You will learn. Because you are willing to learn. There have been countless similar threads in the past, but where the OP has basically ignored most advice and gone their own way anyway, playing super-fast. You are already doing really well, and will be smacking Immortal AIs around in no time :)

If I understand correcty, I could 4>2 whip a library in Aksum after putting a few hammers into it and recover pop fast afterwards. But it should be not too fast because of the 10t -1 :mad:, no? I believe it's time for my first two scientists.
So, are granaries high priority, or libraries? What do you think?
Cheap libraries (Creative trait) is fine and dandy, but I wouldn't really 2-pop them early. As you noticed later, it leads to a lot of overflow, which is then cut in half for the next build (Creative leaders get +100% :hammers: on Libraries). I much prefer to 2-pop something like a settler or worker, especially early in the game when both are crucial, and then regrow on granaries or in this case cheap libraries. I am usually slow at getting up granaries in the early cities, as it's really not all that important (shock, horror!!). True, it is the best building in the game, but in the very early game you have more important priorities like settling cities and getting out some workers (I believe @Fippy mentioned this). Another thing, often overlooked, is that you have a low happy cap in the early game, so spending some time to regrow on something makes sense. If you have a granary you can often regrow to happy cap in 4 turns or something like that, but you need 10 turns for the :mad: to wear off.

Speaking about workers, my most typical play is to settle the third city before getting the second worker. Never mind the third. It does depend a bit on what and how many resources you have in the first two cities, but typically the first worker can first improve the capital, then the second city, and start on the third city. So you don't really lose all that much in terms of workerturns, but you gain a third city earlier. A good timeline is to get 3 cities by 2000BC. Not always possible, but roughly speaking.

Some maps/settings require more workers than others (especially Rainforest due to tons of jungle), but a good guideline is to have 1.5 workers per city. In my opinion that is overkill, but it's good advice for beginners. Typically I have at best 1 worker per city. On this map, by the T108 save I posted, I have 8 workers, and very soon 10 cities. Currently it doesn't feel like I'm short on them, but it is definitely borderline. With experience you simply learn how to use them well. Like putting down a road for one turn when a worker needs to move two tiles to improve a resource. Small details, but they add up.

A few techs like Monarchy ..no clue why...AIs trade freely even in semi-iso
This is actually quite simple. Monarchy does not unlock any buildings, units or wonders (you can check this for all techs in the Civopedia or the tech tree screen). That means the AI values it less, and is willing to trade it instantly. Although Alphabet does unlock spies, the AIs are willing to trade Alpha instantly too.

Mansa Musa is the exception from all other AIs. He is willing to trade anything under the sun to anybody with a pulse, even monopoly techs -- as long as he isn't building a wonder that the tech has unlocked (or you are his worst enemy). Imagine Agriculture unlocked nukes that, no matter what, would auto-target Mansa Musa's cities. He would trade it! :lol:
 
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Just a short note. I'm a bit short of time currently and I was mulling over if I should play my next session or if I should respond to all the interesting things lymond and Pangaea are writing. But I have to confess that I'm very curious how the Golden Age turns out for me after lymond thoroughly elaborated this scenario.
Thus I only have time for a lame joke at the moment (I'm sorry for this :blush:):

Spoiler Axe Invasion :


It really almost was "famous last words". Two barb axes invaded from the east.


Why didn't the warrior borrow the axe of the chopping worker (below to the left) to ward the barbs off?
 
Haha, he really should have. Or used the chopped down tree to whack the barbs in the back of the head (must be stronkkkg).
 
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