Assassination as a tool of war?

[LightSpectra]

German != Nazi. Unless you think Bismarck, Frederick the Great, and a large number of your fellow Austrians in history are Nazis. Even most German nationalists in WWII weren't Nazis.

I agree with you, but how is Frederick the Great a German nationalist? Unless you're instead referring to Friedrich Daniel Bassermann...

 

[Lord Baal]

I agree with you, but how is Frederick the Great a German nationalist? Unless you're instead referring to Friedrich Daniel Bassermann...

Referring basically to a bunch of old German nationalists off the top of my head, including Prussian, Saxon and Austrian "nationalists" (expansionists, really, but the Nazis were more expansionists than nationalists anyway), without particularly caring if the entity they ruled over was Germany or merely a German state.

 

[LightSpectra]

The word "nationalist" seems to imply the attempt to build a nation by separatism, unification or cultural tempering. Frederick II's Brandenburg-Prussia was half Polish when he found it, and half the territory he acquired during his reign was Polish. So I find it a bit odd to call him a German nationalist.

 

[Dachs]

Frederick II's Brandenburg-Prussia was half Polish when he found it, and half the territory he acquired during his reign was Polish.

this is a colossal exaggeration

 

[Lone Wolf]

I don't see how ruling over massive swathes of territory that is ethnically non-"titular nation" prevents you from being a nationalist of said titular nation. Last two Russian Tsars were certainly Russian nationalists, despite 46% of their empire's population being non-Russian.

 

[Dachs]

Fred wasn't a German nationalist because German nationalism didn't really exist at the time and because he hated speaking in German, preferring to use French, and stuff like that. At the same time, he's a figure of German nationalism, even during his own lifetime, because he beat up on states considered by many to be "ancestral German enemies" like France and Austria, winning battles against long odds, and really getting in the thick of it, unlike basically every other royal at the time. His speech before Leuthen was one of Those Moments when it all came together, and did a lot to inflate the Fred-mythos.

 

[LightSpectra]

I don't see how ruling over massive swathes of territory that is ethnically non-"titular nation" prevents you from being a nationalist of said titular nation. Last two Russian Tsars were certainly Russian nationalists, despite 46% of their empire's population being non-Russian.

Because they had a very loose sense of what constituted "Russia." German nationalism was always about uniting the German-speaking states.

 

[Lord Baal]

Fred wasn't a German nationalist because German nationalism didn't really exist at the time and because he hated speaking in German, preferring to use French, and stuff like that. At the same time, he's a figure of German nationalism, even during his own lifetime, because he beat up on states considered by many to be "ancestral German enemies" like France and Austria, winning battles against long odds, and really getting in the thick of it, unlike basically every other royal at the time. His speech before Leuthen was one of Those Moments when it all came together, and did a lot to inflate the Fred-mythos.

This is basically why I mentioned the guy. The fact that German nationalism as such barely existed at the time doesn't make him any less of a hero to later nationalists, and he acted in such manner as to give later German nationalists wet dreams. Even Hitler considered him his idol.

 

[LightSpectra]

Fred wasn't a German nationalist because German nationalism didn't really exist at the time and because he hated speaking in German, preferring to use French, and stuff like that. At the same time, he's a figure of German nationalism, even during his own lifetime, because he beat up on states considered by many to be "ancestral German enemies" like France and Austria, winning battles against long odds, and really getting in the thick of it, unlike basically every other royal at the time. His speech before Leuthen was one of Those Moments when it all came together, and did a lot to inflate the Fred-mythos.

So he was a popular German leader, therefore he was a German nationalist? Odd logic. Was Arminius a German nationalist as well? How about Charlemagne?

Or, you know, they liked to exploit non-Russians for Russian gain.

Certainly -- but that hasn't much to do with the "Russian nation," does it? I wouldn't even so much call it "Russian nationalism" as "pan-Slavism."

 

[Dachs]

So he was a popular German leader, therefore he was a German nationalist? Odd logic. Was Arminius a German nationalist as well? How about Charlemagne?

Do not put words into my mouth. I said he was "not a German nationalist", and a "figure of German nationalism" - a person who ended up glorified by later nationalists, not a person who would've had anything to do with the nationalists themselves while he was alive.

 

[LightSpectra]

Do not put words into my mouth. I said he was "not a German nationalist", and a "figure of German nationalism" - a person who ended up glorified by later nationalists, not a person who would've had anything to do with the nationalists themselves while he was alive.

I'm not questioning you, I'm questioning the people who allegedly made Frederick a German nationalist. Is there any substance behind that whatsoever?

 

[Dachs]

I didn't say anybody "made him a nationalist" either. Presumably one can be a symbol for a given culture's nationalism without having anything to do with nationalism itself.

Applying "nationalist" traits and tendencies to a guy who was around before any of that stuff actually mattered is anachronistic...