At what point did we become "unsustainable?"

[kochman]

Galen wasn't better medicine; the Roman's weren't notable for their irrigation efforts; Roman public order was brutal and often involved genocide; and all the rest was done elsewhere. Next?

Clearly, the world would have been better off without the Romans... right?

 

[vonbach]

At what point did we become "unsustainable?"

When the west started giving hand-outs and medicine to third world nations thats when.

 

[Tee Kay]

"To ravage, to slaughter, to usurp under false titles, they call empire; and where they make a desert, they call it peace."

- attributed to Calgacus

 

[Leoreth]

When the west started giving hand-outs and medicine to third world nations thats when.

Not sure if serious ...?

There's MUCH more wealth pouring from the third world into industrialized countries than what comes back through foreign aid. If anything, third world countries help us sustain our standard of living at their expense.

 

[El_Machinae]

Clearly, the world would have been better off without the Romans... right?

That's survivorship-bias, which is something to watch out for. I'm better off because of Hitler's existence, because he genocidal rampage is what brought together my grandparents. I'm better off because of the Black Death, because I benefited from the resulting Enlightenment.

A bad system can look good to those who thrived through it.

 

[Cutlass]

Let's cut to the chase. The only thing that the state ever does is to steal, to control and to kill. Yes, indeed, this done for the individuals who control it.

Anyone remember that study, I think there was a thread about it, that showed that the expansion of the state came with the reduction in the percentage of people who died by violence?

 

[Tarquelne]

Whatever man tell it to John Cleese

Splitter.

 

[kochman]

That's survivorship-bias, which is something to watch out for. I'm better off because of Hitler's existence, because he genocidal rampage is what brought together my grandparents. I'm better off because of the Black Death, because I benefited from the resulting Enlightenment.

A bad system can look good to those who thrived through it.

You are better off because of the black death... those with the wrong genes were eliminated.
Sucked at the time, but it was for the betterment of the human race... that's different though, because it is nature taking charge (and why I don't worry about over population).

Had this thread already been Godwinned? Or did you take it? And, well, is it so bad to look for silver linings? It doesn't mean the word is better off, but if it was because of WW2 that you got to be you, that's good for you... you didn't ask for it, you were a 2nd or 3rd hand repercussion.

Anyhow, the Romans were pretty awesome, they innovated... it's not just sheer happenstance that they came to rule. There are so many contributions to today that we benefit from... just to list a few: jurisprudence, clean water/plumbing systems, the alphabet we all know and love, making European languages similar which lead to increases in achievement for centuries due to the easier transfer of knowledge, organizing warfare better, etc, etc, etc.

I guess what I am getting at... "suvivor-bias" is kind of a lame concept in the context of the Romans.

 

[Tarquelne]

You are better off because of the black death... those with the wrong genes were eliminated.

??? But those genes were linked to cold-sleep tolerance, which would make star travel *far* cheaper, and the ability to distim well. Both will be a HUGE deal in the future.

Plus the early deaths or non-births of thinkers such as Jeane "QC" Galliard put back technology something like 200 years, at a conservative estimate. Flying cars.

Sucked at the time, but it was for the betterment of the human race... that's different though, because it is nature taking charge (and why I don't worry about over population).

I don't worry about floods, falling trees (assuming they weren't planted by people), asteroid strikes, gamma-burster events, freezing temperatures, or bears for the very same reason.

I guess what I am getting at... "suvivor-bias" is kind of a lame concept in the context of the Romans.

Splitter!

 

[Narz]

It's hard to know how to vote, to me the problem is not the damage that's already been done (though that's huge) but the momentum that can't be stopped.

If you believe in determinism humankind was destined to discover agriculture, leading to the industrial revolution, leading to inevitably poisoning of land, sea & air.

I'd love to see some nanotechnology or uber-smart-Kurzweli-bot coming to clean up the ocean, get clean energy from moonbeams & save the day just in the nick of time. I'm not holding my breath though.