Atlantis: What is it all about?

[João III]

My argument has been consistent - water preceded God. The hammered bracelet is a metaphor for Heaven, where God stretched out Tiamat's lower part to form a band - a firmament dividing the waters above from the waters below. That describes the asteroid belt.

Any idea why a bracelet specifically? Is a bracelet supposed to hold special significance?

 

[Lexicus]

I don't understand why you think "Tehom" is the name of a planet, either. It's the name of the chaos monster that many ancient near eastern gods are supposed to have battled.

Wait this is now a kaiju movie? Okay I changed my mind, this theory is cool and definitely true

 

[Valka D'Ur]

My argument has been consistent

This much is true - here, on Apolyton, and wherever else. My suggestion is to not try it on the Star Trek forum I belong to, because pseudoscience threads there get locked and the OP gets banned for spamming (last occasion was a few years ago when someone else here who used to ramble away down in one of the other sections tried TrekBBS and lasted all of 3 hours).

- water preceded God. The hammered bracelet is a metaphor for Heaven, where God stretched out Tiamat's lower part to form a band - a firmament dividing the waters above from the waters below. That describes the asteroid belt. Genesis does not basically credit god with creating everything, actually very little is unambiguously attributed to god. Even the Earth was covered by water before god showed up. Genesis is not describing the origin of the universe.

You'd better educate the preachers and priests about this, then. They seem to think god created everything.

I dont know what the proto-Earth was doing between Theia and the late heavy bombardment other than being covered by water. I assume it was spinning after Theia, but the 'sky' back then was different. Why would god use metaphors only science could confirm later? To mess with atheists Idk, impart esoteric knowledge, monotheism, poetic storytelling to facilitate ritual and religion. I'd think the question would be: why is science confirming creation myths?

Science is not confirming creation myths except in your imagination.

Now I suppose god could have given everyone a few years of schooling in the sciences so they could understand, but god would lose prestige if people knew this was all the result of a 4 byo collision between worlds. Besides, god was ambivalent about sharing too much knowledge with us.

So I guess that means he/she/it has lost considerable prestige by this point, now that we've begun to understand science.

 

[João III]

This much is true - here, on Apolyton, and wherever else. My suggestion is to not try it on the Star Trek forum I belong to, because pseudoscience threads there get locked and the OP gets banned for spamming (last occasion was a few years ago when someone else here who used to ramble away down in one of the other sections tried TrekBBS and lasted all of 3 hours).

Wait, doesn't Star Trek dip into pseudoscience a bit from time to time? Like the DS9 Prophets?

 

[Plotinus]

Why would god use metaphors only science could confirm later? To mess with atheists Idk, impart esoteric knowledge, monotheism, poetic storytelling to facilitate ritual and religion.

But that doesn't make sense, because no "esoteric knowledge" was imparted. Nobody in antiquity interpreted these texts in the way that you're doing now. So if your interpretation is the correct one, nobody picked up on it. Which means that if this interpretation was God's intention then God failed.

I'd think the question would be: why is science confirming creation myths?

It isn't, though, because your interpretation of these myths is not what they were originally intended to mean.

Tehom is the dark water covered world in Gen 1:2 before god showed up with his wind to create Heaven and Earth. The chaos monster is a metaphor, Tiamat was not a literal dragon, just a water covered world.

What evidence do you have that this is the correct interpretation? What text tells us that Tiamat is meant to be understood metaphorically?

Now I suppose god could have given everyone a few years of schooling in the sciences so they could understand, but god would lose prestige if people knew this was all the result of a 4 byo collision between worlds. Besides, god was ambivalent about sharing too much knowledge with us.

This doesn't make sense to me. First you say that the text is teaching modern science, now you say it's concealing it. You can't have it both ways!

You'd better educate the preachers and priests about this, then. They seem to think god created everything.

To be fair, he's right about this. Genesis does not teach creation ex nihilo, which was a much later doctrine that was later read back into it.

 

[Plotinus]

Wait this is now a kaiju movie? Okay I changed my mind, this theory is cool and definitely true

Oh yes. In fact there was a later Jewish tradition that Yahweh didn't merely defeat the chaos dragon but tamed it and kept it as a pet.

 

[Berzerker]

Any idea why a bracelet specifically? Is a bracelet supposed to hold special significance?

Bronze age adaptation of an older story maybe, but it is a good metaphor. The concept of a "Heaven" located somewhere in the sky appears in myths all over the world and I'm sure its various descriptions will use metaphors people can understand. I posted images and texts early in the thread depicting the heavens and what they have in common, Inca, Nazca, Toltec, Aztec, Fremont (Utah), Norse and Mesopotamia, but the list goes on.

You'd better educate the preachers and priests about this, then. They seem to think god created everything.

Science is not confirming creation myths except in your imagination.

So I guess that means he/she/it has lost considerable prestige by this point, now that we've begun to understand science.

Heaven and earth came from tehom, the primordial world in Gen 1:2, a dark water covered world. God's creation was primarily limited to the firmament, dry land and its sky. Scientists used to say the Earth was covered by a molten lava sea, they even called the period the Hadean for hell or hades. They thought this because they couldn't find older rock, there was a 700my gap between meteorites and terrestrial rocks. But more recently scientists have discovered material that does date back further, Zircon crystals over 4.4 byo... and they formed in water. Now researchers think water was here from the start, even before the impact with Theia.

So what happened to all our rock? It was blasted away during the late heavy bombardment, our crust was chewed up and spit out forming a belt of asteroids, plate tectonics and life soon followed. Thats evidence of panspermia. If life preceded the late heavy bombardment we'll find evidence in meteorites and asteroids. As for God's prestige and science, it was science that convinced me our ancient ancestors were right.

 

[Berzerker]

But that doesn't make sense, because no "esoteric knowledge" was imparted. Nobody in antiquity interpreted these texts in the way that you're doing now. So if your interpretation is the correct one, nobody picked up on it. Which means that if this interpretation was God's intention then God failed.

It isn't, though, because your interpretation of these myths is not what they were originally intended to mean.

What evidence do you have that this is the correct interpretation? What text tells us that Tiamat is meant to be understood metaphorically?

This doesn't make sense to me. First you say that the text is teaching modern science, now you say it's concealing it. You can't have it both ways!

To be fair, he's right about this. Genesis does not teach creation ex nihilo, which was a much later doctrine that was later read back into it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat

As you can see from the images Marduk/Ashur is a man (humanoid) and Tiamat is a dragon or serpent. The casual observer sees the images and thinks the hero with a 1000 faces killed a ferocious animal, but the story says these events preceded Heaven and Earth. The combatants were worlds, Tiamat was split to form Heaven and Earth, that means Tiamat was also a world and so was Marduk, the celestial Lord.

The N American myths of diving animals recognize the prior world was indeed a world, Norse cosmology identifies 9 worlds as does Dante and the Toltec. You said one of the gnostic gospels claimed creation was a mistake, a gospel I saw had Jesus saying the 'creator' was not God and shouldn't be worshiped as such. The esoteric knowledge is an understanding other worlds exist and a collision (light) produced the Earth from an earlier world covered by water.

I said modern science has confirmed Genesis, but around the world we find myths of culture bearers - gods/angels/divine messengers - alongside myths warning of technological advancement. From the Babel Tower to the Peruvian rejection of writing and the instructions given to the Hopi and various "primitive" peoples, there is a deep tradition of eschewing technology that might anger God.

 

[El_Machinae]

The Elohim author of Genesis has definitely been confirmed by science.

I forget if it was carbon-dating or genetic fingerprinting that showed that Eve was cloned from Adam's rib after all the other animals were created, but that's definitely 100% science.

And any space entity capable of knowing that definitely knew that there was liquid water on cooling lava and that birds preceded land animals. Honestly, if they get the 'cloned Eve' thing right, then I'll trust them to know about lava and birds.

3.14159265359

Notice how the 1, 2 and 3 are in the correct ordinal order? The creator of every round thing also created the base 10 numbering system! And that's why apples are round and we have 10 fingers.

 

[Berzerker]

The Elohim author of Genesis has definitely been confirmed by science.

I forget if it was carbon-dating or genetic fingerprinting that showed that Eve was cloned from Adam's rib after all the other animals were created, but that's definitely 100% science.

And any space entity capable of knowing that definitely knew that there was liquid water on cooling lava and that birds preceded land animals. Honestly, if they get the 'cloned Eve' thing right, then I'll trust them to know about lava and birds.

3.14159265359

Notice how the 1, 2 and 3 are in the correct ordinal order? The creator of every round thing also created the base 10 numbering system! And that's why apples are round and we have 10 fingers.

Maybe the 5th day creation included winged creatures, all that flies above the Earth, birds and insects. Both are very old dating back before mammals and us. The story is about the life people could see, not long extinct species. I said science confirmed water preceded land and life and it has, Genesis and those other myths were right.

https://biblebrisket.com/2014/03/17/genesis-1-2-parallels-3/

Enki comes across the plants and asks his page Isimu if he should eat them to “find out their nature.”[1] Isimu says he will name each one and give it to Enki to eat. Doing so he becomes pregnant, but suffers great for being unable to give birth as a male. Ninhursaga decides to help by placing him in her vulva and gives birth to eight deities, each of which is created from a different part of Enki’s body. As you may have already guessed, one is from his rib:

In the Norse myth of Ymir, he gives birth to 8 deities, 2 from his armpits and 6 from his legs.

The story of God making Eve out of Adam's rib may have come from an ancient legend from Mesopotamia, a region located in southwest Asia between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, in modern-day Iraq. After the Sumerian god Enki ate eight plants belonging to his wife, the goddess Ninhursag, she cursed him so that eight parts of his body became diseased. When he was nearly dead, the gods persuaded Ninhursag to help him, and she created eight healing goddesses. The goddess who cured Enki's rib was Ninti, whose name means “lady of the rib” and “lady of life.” In Hebrew mythology, Adam names the woman created from his rib Hawwah, which means “life.” The Sumerian story probably influenced the Hebrew one, which became the basis for the version of Eve's creation found in the Bible.

https://www.worldhistory.biz/ancient-history/51937-a-sumerian-version-of-adam-s-rib.html

Why cant water cover lava?

 

[Birdjaguar]

The combatants were worlds,

You really should read your links. No mention of planets is made. If you actually dig a bit into the Enuma Elish you find that Tiamat and Apsu are water, salt and fresh. Somebody just made up the planet business.

Tiamat is the (female) personification of 'Sea' and 'sea water'. She appears as such in other epics as well. Names like Tiamat and the other primaeval beings to be mentioned (Apsu, Mummu) are missing the determinative sign for divinity

. The reason is unknown but should not be seen in relation to their wicked disposition, because e.g. names of demons do carry this determinative sign.

Apsu, the second primaeval being that existed before the creation of heaven and earth, is the male personification of subterranean waters.

No mention of being planets though.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080411050418/http://www.sron.nl/~jheise/akkadian/enuma1_expl.html

 

[Lexicus]

Why cant water cover lava?

Again, do you know what a phase diagram is? Ever seen one?

 

[Harv]

Again, do you know what a phase diagram is? Ever seen one?

Do you mean this? What does this have to do with water covering lava?

Spoiler :

Wait. I confused phase diagram and phasor diagram.

 

[Berzerker]

You really should read your links. No mention of planets is made. If you actually dig a bit into the Enuma Elish you find that Tiamat and Apsu are water, salt and fresh. Somebody just made up the planet business.
No mention of being planets though.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080411050418/http://www.sron.nl/~jheise/akkadian/enuma1_expl.html

Your link is a commentary that begins by claiming Tiamat was 1st and Apsu was 2nd. Here is the text:

1 When the heavens above did not exist,
2 And earth beneath had not come into being —
3 There was Apsû, the first in order, their begetter,
4 And demiurge Tia-mat, who gave birth to them all;
5 They had mingled their waters together
6 Before meadow-land had coalesced and reed-bed was to he found —
7 When not one of the gods had been formed
8 Or had come into being, when no destinies had been decreed,
9 The gods were created within them:
10 Lah(mu and Lah(amu were formed and came into being.
11 While they grew and increased in stature
12 Anšar and Kišar, who excelled them, were created.
13 They prolonged their days, they multiplied their years.
14 Anu, their son, could rival his fathers.
15 Anu, the son, equalled Anšar,
16 And Anu begat Nudimmud, his own equal.

The metaphor was the marshlands where runoff met the saltwater of the Gulf. Tiamat was the salt water and the Apsu was the fresh water. You posted a link a while ago claiming the Sun might have supplied the Earth with some of its water, hydrogen attaching to dust grains. Fresh water and salt water mixed and 2 gods formed between them followed by 4 more further from the Apsu (Sun).

Tiamat was a planet, Heaven and Earth came from it. A belief in other worlds permeates myth. These gods and their destinies are planets and their orbits.

Again, do you know what a phase diagram is? Ever seen one?

Do you have a phase diagram showing magma cant erupt under water?

 

[Berzerker]

What does this have to do with water covering lava?

Certain conditions are required for water... I hope you get an answer

'Scientists think Europa’s ice shell is 10 to 15 miles (15 to 25 kilometers) thick, floating on an ocean 40 to 100 miles (60 to 150 kilometers) deep. So while Europa is only one-fourth the diameter of Earth, its ocean may contain twice as much water as all of Earth’s oceans combined.'

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/jupiter-moons/europa/in-depth/#:~:text=Atmosphere-,Atmosphere,active in the present day.

If little old Europa can have that much water, why cant the Earth in Gen 1:2 before land and life appear < 4 bya?

I saw so many documentaries with simulations of a molten Earth getting hit with rocks its been hard to envision the early Earth covered by water.

 

[Lexicus]

Do you mean this? What does this have to do with water covering lava?

It is trivial to show that at pressures existing on the Earth's surface, water cannot exist in liquid state at the temperature of molten rock.

Now, you could get around this by positing a water ocean, because water at the pressures found at the ocean bottom can be a lot hotter and still be liquid. Obviously, volcanic eruptions at the seafloor do not turn all the ocean above them to steam.

But there's no plausible way to get an ocean in the first place on top of a molten planetary surface, because the way the oceans formed is that, first, the atmosphere accumulated a lot of water vapor and then that water vapor (through volcanism - there is likely many times as much water as exists in the oceans in the magma in the mantle) fell as rain to form the oceans. If the planet had still had a molten surface when this occurred the rain would turn to steam well before it hit the lava.

So that's the non-expert, tl;dr basic physics/thermodynamics reason that there cannot have been an ocean covering the molten surface of planet.

 

[Birdjaguar]

As you can see from the images Marduk/Ashur is a man (humanoid) and Tiamat is a dragon or serpent. The casual observer sees the images and thinks the hero with a 1000 faces killed a ferocious animal, but the story says these events preceded Heaven and Earth. The combatants were worlds, Tiamat was split to form Heaven and Earth, that means Tiamat was also a world and so was Marduk, the celestial Lord.

[/QUOTE]
So the story begins as below and as it begins there is no Marduk or anything but Apsu and Tiamat. That is all. Not what you said above. If you read the text there is no mention of planets or worlds. That is just made up.

Your link is a commentary that begins by claiming Tiamat was 1st and Apsu was 2nd. Here is the text:

1 When the heavens above did not exist,
2 And earth beneath had not come into being —
3 There was Apsû, the first in order, their begetter,
4 And demiurge Tia-mat, who gave birth to them all;
5 They had mingled their waters together
6 Before meadow-land had coalesced and reed-bed was to he found —
7 When not one of the gods had been formed
8 Or had come into being, when no destinies had been decreed,
9 The gods were created within them:
10 Lah(mu and Lah(amu were formed and came into being.
11 While they grew and increased in stature
12 Anšar and Kišar, who excelled them, were created.
13 They prolonged their days, they multiplied their years.
14 Anu, their son, could rival his fathers.
15 Anu, the son, equalled Anšar,
16 And Anu begat Nudimmud, his own equal.

The metaphor was the marshlands where runoff met the saltwater of the Gulf. Tiamat was the salt water and the Apsu was the fresh water. You posted a link a while ago claiming the Sun might have supplied the Earth with some of its water, hydrogen attaching to dust grains. Fresh water and salt water mixed and 2 gods formed between them followed by 4 more further from the Apsu (Sun).

Tiamat was a planet, Heaven and Earth came from it. A belief in other worlds permeates myth. These gods and their destinies are planets and their orbits.

You have reversed things. You/Sitchin have made up the planet metaphor for Tiamat and Apsu and dismissed the literal translation. The literal text fits perfectly the reality of where Sumer was founded. The Sumerians had it right; their actual creation story began in the salt marshes of the Persian Gulf. You are forced to create a fictitious metaphor of planets to make the story fit what you want it to say about aliens, gold mining, planets with 3600 year orbits that some how get off course as soon as people can record such events. But that is what you always do. You cherry pick bits and pieces of stuff and then twist them to fit your already set story. You then refuse to discuss any obvious flaws in the story.

• Failure of the Anunnaki planet to return on schedule
• No evidence of 400,000 years of gold mining in Africa
• No actual evidence of the spacefaring Anunnaki having been here
• How human life could evolve or even exist on a planet with a 3600 year orbit
• Present any genetic evidence of Anunnaki mating with humans

 

[Berzerker]

It is trivial to show that at pressures existing on the Earth's surface, water cannot exist in liquid state at the temperature of molten rock.

Now, you could get around this by positing a water ocean, because water at the pressures found at the ocean bottom can be a lot hotter and still be liquid. Obviously, volcanic eruptions at the seafloor do not turn all the ocean above them to steam.

But there's no plausible way to get an ocean in the first place on top of a molten planetary surface, because the way the oceans formed is that, first, the atmosphere accumulated a lot of water vapor and then that water vapor (through volcanism - there is likely many times as much water as exists in the oceans in the magma in the mantle) fell as rain to form the oceans. If the planet had still had a molten surface when this occurred the rain would turn to steam well before it hit the lava.

So that's the non-expert, tl;dr basic physics/thermodynamics reason that there cannot have been an ocean covering the molten surface of planet.

I was responding to Ziggy:

Question, why are you guys arguing with a guy who believes that a planet that cools down from it's molten lava state is covered with water before land appears?

Cooling down from a molten state means it aint too hot for water, the water wins and the land came later.

 

[Plotinus]

Tiamat was split to form Heaven and Earth, that means Tiamat was also a world and so was Marduk, the celestial Lord.

No, that doesn't follow at all. Marduk made the physical universe (including the Milky Way) out of Tiamat. It doesn't follow from this that Tiamat was a "planet" to begin with and it certainly doesn't follow that Marduk was one.

Maybe the 5th day creation included winged creatures, all that flies above the Earth, birds and insects. Both are very old dating back before mammals and us.

This is not correct. Mammals evolved long before birds did.

The fundamental problem with all of this is that you're reading these texts and finding ways to make them consistent with your interpretation of modern science. But even if this endeavour is successful - and with a bit of ingenuity any text of this kind can be interpreted in a way that is consistent with whatever you want - it doesn't follow that this is the correct reading, or that it's what was originally intended by its authors. This is a common feature of conspiracy theories. When conspiracy theorists cite something as "evidence" for their theories, what they're looking at is something that is consistent with their theory being true. But that isn't evidence. It's only evidence if it would be more probable given the truth of their theory than it would be given the falsity of their theory.

It's the same thing here. Is Genesis consistent with the cosmological theories you're describing? Yes, of course, if you interpret "Tehom" as the name for the primordial Earth and all the other interpretations you've been putting forward. But consistency is largely meaningless. What you need to do is not to show that you can interpret Genesis in a way that's consistent with these theories but to show that this interpretation is the correct one. You need to show that your interpretation explains why the text is the way it is better than alternative explanations do. What reason is there to think that Tehom refers to a planet (rather than a mythical creature or god), other than that you want it to? You haven't given any. All you've done is point to these myths and assert that they have the meanings you think they do. That's not evidence.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

Not making any deep points here. But if we are discussing creation, the movie Noah has for me a beautiful interpretation of the story.