Atlantis: What is it all about?

Was Atlantis real?


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While Plato did express the view that you can infinitesimally get connected to a realm of actual truth, through philosophy, I don't see how this is about a salvation mechanism. If you are locked in a room, someone may argue that if you do so and so you may get some insight on what is happening outside the room. Another may claim that if you do so and so you will manage to exit the room. Someone else, still, that you will be saved.
That said, it was already a philosophical joke in the time of Diogenes Laertius, that no one could get what the Agathon of Plato is supposed to be. Even its name suggests it is similar to a benevolent deity, though it is just an archetype and Plato didn't argue that archetypes themselves are alive or agents - there is discussion in his dialogues about them being set by a deity.

This is (arguably) true of Plato himself. But not necessarily of Platonism, which in its middle period veered in a much more religious direction. Remember that for the Middle Platonists the Forms became objects of veneration, conceived as ideas in the mind of God.

Okay, knowing that the Barthian god exists (I don't, because I've just found out about it, so haven't really thought about it), why do you describe yourself as an atheist? How does knowing that the Barthian god exists change your behaviour compared to other people?

Now, this seems to be the 'redefining of God until it's defined as undiscoverable' more than anything. I mean, heck, it seems to depend on the existence of Jesus as somewhat described in the Bible. I truly don't know why you think it exists, but obviously you're a longer philosopher than I am. But, given that you know it exists, what does this knowledge motivate?

You misunderstand me - I don't think that Barth's God (or any other) exists. I'm just citing it as an example of something that's conceived as both existent but undiscoverable. Assuming that Barth's God could exist, it would mean that there could be something that exists but is undiscoverable.
 
Oh, then I think I'm being misunderstood. Obviously, something can be undiscoverable but still exist (stars 50 billion light years away could very reasonably exist, afterall). But when someone posits a god and defines in undiscoverability, at that point they're just making stuff up. And, very usually, from a foundation built from a 'discoverable' god. Genesis has been carried forward, even in the era of 'personalized relationship with God', by people who thought (or were 'told by the Spirit') that it was accurate. The ever-twisting redefining is done after the evidence-absence.

There's nothing about 'existing' that necessitates undiscoverability, even if that trait can be added in coherently if packaged together. But it's an essential trait of nonexistening things.
 
Undiscoverability is an essential trait of nonexisting things, but one has to wonder if there are even (for all points of view, not just a set one such as the human pov) nonexisting things.
Furthermore, there is always a difference between the reality of forming a view (such as "x doesn't exist" - or, for that matter, "x does exist") and any relative tie to x in the actual formation of that view. Outside an axiom-based system, it is rare to form an actual tie, and for obvious reasons there is no axiom-based system in phenomena which have to do with mater instead of notions (=> whatever mater is in itself, it is something regardless of point of view, even if what it is factors alterations due to the observer).
 
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Does "before the Big Bang" exist?
Is it discoverable?
 
It both could exist and needn't be discoverable if it does.

Being unable to determine "Before the Big Bang" is coherent within Last Thursdayism as a framework. But being unable to determine "Before the Big Bang" isn't evidence for Last Thursdayism.

That Genesis is false history when read plainly is coherent within "aliens speaking in metaphors" as a framework. But "Genesis was wrong" isn't evidence for said aliens. It IS evidence against "aliens trying to communicate clearly".

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
 
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Maybe aliens wanted to confuse people about history. It's what they did in the tower of Babel story.
A question, though, would be just why aliens of any stature would care about the backward ancient jewish culture.
 
I watched a documentary tonight on BBC Earth, presented by Brian Cox. The show was called "Wonders of Life" and he explained stuff about physics, chemistry, energy, where it's theorized that life first began on Earth (under what conditions), and so on. There were segments of the show that dealt with dragonflies, golden jellyfish, and orangutans (TIL that orangutans sometimes wear leaves as hats, and parents care for the young for 8 years before they're expected to fend for themselves).

Professor Cox said nothing about water covering lava or anything else you've been repeating for the last 19 pages.

I fail to see how this has any connection to water covering lava. It's Io that's got the seismic activity going on.

Did Cox describe the Earth before life appeared? We were discussing the surface of the primordial Earth and if molten lava cooled to form land before water covered it, I think water cooled the lava. The oldest evidence shows rock was forming in water, not before it. Researchers have discovered large quantities of water in the mantle and some think the Earth not only had water before the impact with Theia, but the Earth formed surrounded by water. This is only relevant to the creation myths because they describe a primordial water world before creation. We know that world existed now, water predates plate tectonics and life by a half billion years.
 
No mention of water in this article about Theia.

What are the mysterious continent-sized lumps deep inside Earth?
For decades, planetary scientists have been trying to understand the origins of two colossal geological anomalies inside our planet. New insights suggest they could be leftovers from a cosmic collision
OUR planet is like a bad cake in a cosmic baking contest. On inspection of the first slice, the judges might say its layering is quite neat. The crunchy crust sits on a solid-but-squidgy mantle, which wraps around a gooey outer core. But cut another slice and they will soon see that something has gone awry. Looming inside the neat layers are two giant, messy lumps.

These two blobs are colossal. They are the size of continents, covering almost a third of the boundary between the core and the mantle. We also know that they are hotter than their surroundings. But everything else about these blobs is mysterious, from what they are made of and where they came from to how they affect our planet today.

The quest to understand them has so far verged on the quixotic. Geologists and planetary scientists are pursuing it with vigour, however, because the blobs are likely to be guarding some serious secrets. We are scrambling to get a better picture of these shadowy underworld titans, not least how ancient they are.

That is important because if they turn out to be geologically youthful, it would suggest we are living through a special epoch. There must be something particularly strange going on down there, to produce such giant oddities. Whereas “if these things are truly ancient”, says Sujoy Mukhopadhyay at the University of California, Davis, “it tells us something about how our planet formed”. And they might even surprise us with an answer to a bigger question, one that goes beyond parochial concerns about our own planet.

Since the late 19th century, geologists have used vibrations called seismic waves, normally generated by earthquakes, to map the interior of our planet. These waves move slowly in less dense and rigid rock, but faster through more tightly packed matter. After studying their speed in countless rock types, geoscientists sent seismic waves through Earth to see the composition of its internal structure: a solid inner core, surrounded by a liquid outer core, which sloshes molten iron and nickel around to generate its magnetic field. On top of this is the mostly solid mantle, the bulk of Earth’s interior. Capping all this is the crust, an amalgam of rocks that have been erupted, broken up, squashed together and pulled apart. This is what you learned about at school.


Dr. Hiroki Ichikawa (http://dagik.org/misc/gst/index.html)


But what you may not know is that, in the 1980s, seismic waves hit on something odd: two giant clumps inside the planet’s mantle, making up about 8 per cent of the mantle’s volume. These lumps sit on top of the liquid core, one below the Pacific, one beneath Africa. As wide as ocean basins, they also seem to rise almost 1000 kilometres vertically, into the mantle. They are uneven and misshapen, like the waxy blobs of a lava lamp. But right from the get-go, the questions of what they are doing there, and how they got there, have confounded Earth scientists.

It is even hard to know what to call them. When seismic waves hit the blobs, they slow down. This earned them the name “large low-shear-velocity provinces”, a clumsy collection of words. “It’s not an acronym you can easily say,” says Paul Byrne, a planetary scientist at Washington University in St Louis, Missouri. Some call them superplumes. Byrne insists “blob is fine”.

Most of what we know about these blobs is through seismology, but seismology has its flaws. Temperature changes the density and rigidity of a rock, but so does its composition. “It’s really hard to tell the difference between the two,” says Harriet Lau, a geophysicist at the University of California, Berkeley. Most agree that the blobs are probably hotter than the surrounding mantle, but it is hard to tell if they are made of the same stuff, with lots of iron in them, or if they are packed with other minerals.

Rise and fall
The simplest explanation is that they are made of the same material as the mantle, and are just hotter. If so, their presence may be a result of the disintegration of Pangaea, Earth’s most recent supercontinent, which formed around 330 million years ago and started breaking up around 200 million years ago. Continents are part of the planet’s outer shell, made of crust and some upper material in the mantle. As Pangaea broke into tectonic jigsaw pieces, prominent subduction zones – deep wounds that allow one tectonic plate to descend beneath another – opened up. For the past 250 million years, defunct chunks of tectonic plates, called slabs, have been descending into the lower mantle. Since the insides of our planet are hotter, the blobs might simply be the warm spots on the core-mantle boundary that aren’t receiving any of this cooler falling material.

Then again, the simplest explanation isn’t always the correct one. There is also a chance these blobs aren’t just hotter, but are also made of different stuff to the rest of the mantle. If so, where they came from is a mystery. And the key to solving the mystery lies in their density, which determines what rises and falls, and gives clues about temperature and chemical composition. “Density is kind of the holy grail in this debate,” says Paula Koelemeijer, a seismologist at Royal Holloway, University of London.

Working separately, Lau and Koelemeijer have both been trying to figure how dense these blobs are. In 2017, using GPS sensors to measure tidal changes to the shape of the crust caused by the blobs, Lau and her colleagues estimated the blobs to be fairly dense. But that same year, Koelemeijer and her colleagues used a type of seismic wave sensitive to deep mantle structures, to study where the blobs sit in relation to the core. They were always elevated above the rest of the core, hinting that they were less dense than the surroundings.

The two approaches “were showing us conflicting results”, says Koelemeijer. To crack the case, the researchers decided to team up. Early results from their new work indicating that the blobs may be mostly light – perhaps bundles of hot, buoyant mantle plumes – but with dense plant-like roots. But until the results are published, they don’t want to speculate about what this could mean for the blobs’ origins.

Another important conundrum is the age of these blobs. Scientists examined lava spewed by oceanic volcanoes powered by the blobs (see “Shaping Earth”), finding odd chemistry. Some of this volcanic material seems like it “hasn’t ever erupted at the surface of the planet”, says Lau. This includes radioactive elements dating back to the first 50 to 100 million years of Earth’s life, stuff you won’t find in younger rocks. “That’s a very strong argument to say there’s something really ancient down there,” says Mukhopadhyay.




Strangely shaped entities inside Earth rise out of the crust and into the mantle

Dr. Hiroki Ichikawa (http://dagik.org/misc/gst/index.html)



If so, that would go against the idea that plate tectonics caused the blobs. Plate tectonics began at least 3 billion years ago, but we don’t know exactly when it started. If the blob matter is truly primordial, even older than the advent of plate tectonics, then where else could it have come from? One option is that this material crystallised deep within the molten soup that was the very young Earth, remaining there since.

A more intriguing suggestion, which has been gaining interest in recent years, is that the blobs come from elsewhere in the solar system.

Around 4.5 billion years ago, when Earth was just an infant, an object the size of Mars, known as Theia, is thought to have slammed into the planet. This giant impact sent molten matter screaming into orbit around our magma-covered world, material that coalesced to form the moon. This idea of how the moon formed has been around since the 1970s, and remains the leading hypothesis. In recent years, however, some have taken it further, wondering if Theia may also be the origin of the blobs. Segments of Theia’s corpse could have been
preserved on the fringes of Earth’s core for the past 4.5 billion years.

If that’s right, it would solve the origins of the Earth blobs and settle the debate over how the moon formed in one fell swoop. Except that is a tricky thing to prove. For one, Theia has been destroyed, so we can’t take samples to compare with the lava created by the blobs’ mantle plumes. Another issue arises when trying to virtually reproduce the giant, primordial impact. Chemical analyses of lunar material scooped up during the Apollo era suggest that the moon is mostly made of Earth material, but simulations of the giant primordial impact create a moon mostly made from Theia. A recent study suggested you get something geologically closer to the real moon if Theia hit a magma-ocean-covered Earth, but it still isn’t a perfect replication of reality.

There are various ways we could yet get a better understanding. If Earth blobs truly are primordial, then ancient radioactive elements would give off a unique neutrino signature that, hypothetically, could be detected at the planet’s surface. But that would need the right sort of detectors placed at the perfect spots, and we aren’t there yet.

Most scientists hope to do more with the tools they already have – seismology, chief among them. Most seismometers, the devices that detect seismic waves, are on land, which makes up less than a third of Earth’s surface area. The oceans, on the other hand, are “one massive blind spot that global seismology is yet to really improve upon”, says Lau. Floating seismometers, or vast arrays of sea-floor seismometers that can peer into the planet in considerable detail, are starting to fix that. This sort of research is showing our pair of mystery objects “not as two massive blobs, necessarily”, says Koelemeijer, “but much patchier with more details.”

The plot thickened last year when Qian Yuan, a doctoral student at Arizona State University, presented intriguing new results at the Lunar and Planetary Science Conference, held online. According to a combination of his colleagues’ prior work and Yuan’s computer simulations, after Theia’s collision with our planet 4.5 billion years ago, much of the upper segment of Earth was liquefied, and Theia was largely obliterated. About 20 per cent of Theia’s mantle punched through to Earth’s lower mantle, a solid layer that for the most part didn’t join in with the sloshing molten world above. Yuan’s argument is that there, below that shield, Theia’s mantle shards remain, surviving to this very day.

That may sound far-fetched, but it would tally with the hints of primordial matter in some of the lava driven onto the planet’s surface by the blobs’ plumes. And there might be ways to test Yuan’s hypothesis.

According to Yuan, samples of the moon’s crust offer additional clues. A team of his colleagues has studied the chemistry of these rocks, and found that they suggest the lunar mantle – a stand-in for Theia’s mantle – has a preponderance of dense iron oxide. That suggests the blobs are denser than Earth’s mantle.

If so, that may explain why they still exist today: instead of being swept up by the mantle’s currents and blended into it, their high density let them sink to the base of the mantle and become stubbornly stuck there, to this day. Subducting plates may be influencing the location and composition of the blobs today, but perhaps Theia gave birth to them. That would have been a sight to behold, says Yuan. “It’s beyond my imagination.”

volcanoes on the planet. It played a key role in the dismantling of supercontinents and the creation of ocean basins. And it even contributed to the chaos that unfolded 65 million years ago, unleashing climate-changing volcanic gases while the world reeled from a major asteroid impact.

Although some seem to stand alone, most of these entities, named mantle plumes, appear to sprout from the two blobs. But the way they do this is subject to debate. They might rise up as one continual fountain, or they could appear as many little blobs that together give the illusion of one continuous plume. For now, the main investigation is into where they came from. “Until we know what the blobs are, it seems a bit premature to attribute them to any causal mechanism,” says Paul Byrne at Washington University in St Louis, Missouri.


https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ew&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NSNEW_050522
 
Did Cox describe the Earth before life appeared? We were discussing the surface of the primordial Earth and if molten lava cooled to form land before water covered it, I think water cooled the lava.

Why this is BS in two images:




First is phase diagram of water, second phase diagram of SiO2 (most common compound in rock).
 
Did Cox describe the Earth before life appeared? We were discussing the surface of the primordial Earth and if molten lava cooled to form land before water covered it, I think water cooled the lava. The oldest evidence shows rock was forming in water, not before it. Researchers have discovered large quantities of water in the mantle and some think the Earth not only had water before the impact with Theia, but the Earth formed surrounded by water. This is only relevant to the creation myths because they describe a primordial water world before creation. We know that world existed now, water predates plate tectonics and life by a half billion years.
He described it briefly, but the focus of this episode was physics, chemistry and the laws of thermodynamics as they related to the beginning of life and how evolution works.

He said nothing about ancient Babylonian myths.

I highly recommend this show to anyone who has access to BBC Earth. Cox is very good at explaining physics to math-challenged people. It helps to use real, physical examples of what he's talking about, rather than dry equations.

And I got to see some lovely scenery in the Philippines, as well. :)
 
Why this is BS in two images:

First is phase diagram of water, second phase diagram of SiO2 (most common compound in rock).

What does 22,089 represent wrt to pressure on Earth? From google I get 22089 Kpa = 3204 psi and at 11 km down under water its about 16,000 psi.

If the Enuma Elish is somewhat accurate in its description of the primordial Earth then it was roughly twice as large as now. If it formed at the solar system's frost line water was plentiful and judging by the depth of Europa's ocean a super earth at the asteroid belt could have had an ocean hundreds of miles deep with a thicker atmosphere. So I'm curious at what point gravity, water and atmospheric pressure would overcome the ability of molten lava to vaporize water above it.

There are only 2 times in Earth's past I can see in the record that might have melted the entire surface, Theia and the late heavy bombardment. The paucity of rock predating the LHB suggests the crust was effectively disappeared about 4 bya but Theia should have done even more damage.
 
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This is not correct. Mammals evolved long before birds did.

Mammals first appeared in roughly the late Triassic. It depends rather on exactly what one means by "mammal". If you use the term more loosely, there were mammal-like animals much earlier than that - all the very mammal-like synapsids in the Permian. Indeed one might say that what we're currently living in isn't the age of mammals, it's the second age of synapsids, with the Mesozoic as a reptilian aberration in the middle. Anyway, birds appeared in the late Jurassic.
It does depend on your definition of birds and mammals:

 
Genesis was referring to the animals people could see around them, not long extinct species. "Modern" birds and mammals are more recent

Recent claims from molecular evidence that modern orders of birds and mammals arose in the Early Cretaceous, over 100 million years (Myr) ago, are contrary to palaeontological evidence. The oldest fossils generally fall in the time range from 70–50 Myr ago, with no earlier finds. If the molecular results are correct, then the first half of the fossil record of modern birds and mammals is missing

https://cpb-eu-w2.wpmucdn.com/blogs.bristol.ac.uk/dist/5/537/files/2019/07/1999BioEssays.pdf
 
Genesis was referring to the animals people could see around them, not long extinct species. "Modern" birds and mammals are more recent



https://cpb-eu-w2.wpmucdn.com/blogs.bristol.ac.uk/dist/5/537/files/2019/07/1999BioEssays.pdf
I do not know what is going on with that, but we have macro scale bird fossils earlier than that.

Archaeopteryx was about 150 million years ago, and Protoavis was over 200 million years ago if you call that a bird.


Protoavis texensis paratype
 
Like most of his posts here, he just spins the evidence to fit his desired conclusions.
 
Genesis was referring to the animals people could see around them, not long extinct species. "Modern" birds and mammals are more recent

But then it makes no sense to say one group was created earlier than the other group. The mammals that the authors of Genesis saw around them didn't predate the birds that they saw around them. All of them, whether mammals or birds, were equally modern.

I do not know what is going on with that, but we have macro scale bird fossils earlier than that.

Archaeopteryx was about 150 million years ago, and Protoavis was over 200 million years ago if you call that a bird.


Protoavis texensis paratype

The article he linked to was about modern orders within mammals and birds, not about mammals and birds as a whole.

I think, though, that he's misunderstanding it as referring to the actual species that are alive today, which it certainly is not.
 
Like most of his posts here, he just spins the evidence to fit his desired conclusions.

The article I linked shows 'modern' birds and mammals appeared around the time of the KT extinction

But then it makes no sense to say one group was created earlier than the other group. The mammals that the authors of Genesis saw around them didn't predate the birds that they saw around them. All of them, whether mammals or birds, were equally modern.

The article he linked to was about modern orders within mammals and birds, not about mammals and birds as a whole.

I think, though, that he's misunderstanding it as referring to the actual species that are alive today, which it certainly is not.

What mammals seen by the people writing Genesis predated birds?
 
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