Atlantis: What is it all about?

[Berzerker]

Underwater magmatic eruptions are local phenomena where magma from deep within crust breaks through cooler bedrock under water before it has a chance to cool off. But what you are describing is global situation where, due to heat exchange, the water layer and molten rock have somewhat similar temperature. I posted phase diagrams to show that such situation can't happen. A planet sized ball of molten rock would pretty much instantly vaporize any water it would touch, forming an atmosphere of water vapor, which wouldn't be able to condense until the surface of the rock had cooled off to the point when it can coexist with liquid water, at which point it's long since it solidified.

Your phase diagram showed increasing water pressure (and therefore gravity) increases that cooling point and the PSI 11 km down was off your chart. A long solidified crust is not hot enough to vaporize a super ocean above it. At no point during that cooling process would the magma become 'land', if it had we'd find evidence. The earliest rock formed in water, magma cool enough to form crust is not hot enough to vaporize the ocean above it.

I hope you realize that Norse myths are not geology texts, nor are they astrophysics texts, nor chemistry texts. They're stories, and you can try from 20 years ago until the cows come home to force science to conform to your stories, but it isn't going to work.

Earth is not twice as big as itself. That is not logical.

According to the Enuma Elish Tiamat was split in two like a flatfish with half carried away from the battlefield by Marduk's north wind to form Earth. The other half was dispersed, scattered, and hammered into belts and debris trails. Even Oort said he thought his cloud of comets originated near Jupiter. Btw, Jupiter would have been in a nice location to grow larger if planets collided at the asteroid belt.

My understanding is that @Berzerker isn't approaching the myths as geology texts, astrophysics texts, or chemistry texts but rather more akin to historical texts

That's because the idea is Earth was formed from the remains of Tiamat. He's not at all saying Earth is twice as big as itself

The Norse myth is a metaphorical description of the world before and after 'creation'. Its of the same type as the Enuma Elish, a hero slays and dismembers a being to form Earth. In both we are given the location of this being, Tiamat/Ymir. In the Enuma Elish 3 planets were between the Sun and Tiamat and Ymir formed where heat and ice met - the asteroid belt.

 

[Samson]

Your phase diagram showed increasing water pressure (and therefore gravity) increases that cooling point and the PSI 11 km down was off your chart. A long solidified crust is not hot enough to vaporize a super ocean above it. At no point during that cooling process would the magma become 'land', if it had we'd find evidence. The earliest rock formed in water, magma cool enough to form crust is not hot enough to vaporize the ocean above it.

The pressure at 11km (over 100 Mpa) and over 400 °C is past the critical point of water. That means the water in contact with the magma will be a supercritical fluid. I am not sure what the Earth would be like if there was a layer of supercritical water at thousands of degrees between a later of liquid rock and liquid water, but I am not at all sure it would be stable.

Spoiler phase diagram of water with a bit more of the pressure range :

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

This mythical extra large Earth, did it also have an atmosphere before it was covered with water?

I can't be arsed to wade through the nonsense, so feel free to not be arsed to answer.

 

[Plotinus]

I'm still wondering how the entire Milky Way was formed from half of a body twice the size of the Earth.

 

[Sarin]

Your phase diagram showed increasing water pressure (and therefore gravity) increases that cooling point and the PSI 11 km down was off your chart. A long solidified crust is not hot enough to vaporize a super ocean above it. At no point during that cooling process would the magma become 'land', if it had we'd find evidence. The earliest rock formed in water, magma cool enough to form crust is not hot enough to vaporize the ocean above it.

...you haven't really looked at those phase diagrams and their scale, did you.

Here's a hint. The entire phase diagram of water would fit in a very small rectangle in the lower left corner of the silicon dioxide's phase diagram. The critical point of water is 22 Megapascals, 647 Kelvin. The pressure scale for silicon dioxide is in Gigapascals, and its melting point at 1 atmosphere is 1986 Kelvin.

The reason why pillow lava forms is that it's a few tonnes of magma dropped into the millions of tonnes of water, rapidly dissipating the heat. That's not what would happen on primordial Earth. Hydrosphere of present day Earth is mere 0,04% of Earth's total mass. Lithosphere-the uppermost solid layer of Earth-is over 2% of the total mass.

 

[Samson]

...you haven't really looked at those phase diagrams and their scale, did you.

Here's a hint. The entire phase diagram of water would fit in a very small rectangle in the lower left corner of the silicon dioxide's phase diagram. The critical point of water is 22 Megapascals, 647 Kelvin. The pressure scale for silicon dioxide is in Gigapascals, and its melting point at 1 atmosphere is 1986 Kelvin.

The reason why pillow lava forms is that it's a few tonnes of magma dropped into the millions of tonnes of water, rapidly dissipating the heat. That's not what would happen on primordial Earth. Hydrosphere of present day Earth is mere 0,04% of Earth's total mass. Lithosphere-the uppermost solid layer of Earth-is over 2% of the total mass.

Do you have any idea what it would be like, with a layer of supercritical water at ~100MPa and a few thousand K? Apparently there are some bits of supercritical fluid around the solar system, and even some hydrothermal vents.

 

[Sarin]

Do you have any idea what it would be like, with a layer of supercritical water at ~100MPa and a few thousand K? Apparently there are some bits of supercritical fluid around the solar system, and even some hydrothermal vents.

Rather curiously, the surface mixture wouldn't really be water. Supercritical fluids tend to be perfectly miscible with each other, and every major component of primordial atmosphere has lower critical point than water. Also, it wouldn't actually be really a layer-there's no liquid-gas boundary between supercritical liquid and its gaseous phase.

It would actually look kinda like the atmosphere at the surface of Venus, where conditions are above the critical point of major components of its atmosphere, carbon dioxide and molecular nitrogen.

 

[Berzerker]

...you haven't really looked at those phase diagrams and their scale, did you.

Here's a hint. The entire phase diagram of water would fit in a very small rectangle in the lower left corner of the silicon dioxide's phase diagram. The critical point of water is 22 Megapascals, 647 Kelvin. The pressure scale for silicon dioxide is in Gigapascals, and its melting point at 1 atmosphere is 1986 Kelvin.

The reason why pillow lava forms is that it's a few tonnes of magma dropped into the millions of tonnes of water, rapidly dissipating the heat. That's not what would happen on primordial Earth. Hydrosphere of present day Earth is mere 0,04% of Earth's total mass. Lithosphere-the uppermost solid layer of Earth-is over 2% of the total mass.

I looked enough to ask about your diagram and you didn't respond

What does 22,089 represent wrt to pressure on Earth? From google I get 22089 Kpa = 3204 psi and at 11 km down under water its about 16,000 psi.

How hot would the surface have to be to vaporize a 100 mile deep ocean (seawater) on a planet twice the mass of Earth with a very thick atmosphere of water vapor? As for the primordial Earth, thats up for debate. The reason why its called the Hadean is because people thought the surface was too hot for water. Then they found out our earliest rock formed in water. If you are right and the crust formed before water then where is the rock that didn't form in water?

 

[Lexicus]

How hot would the surface have to be to vaporize a 100 mile deep ocean (seawater) on a planet twice the mass of Earth with a very thick atmosphere of water vapor?

Now the goalposts are shifting at interplanetary distances, quite a feat tbh

 

[Sarin]

I looked enough to ask about your diagram and you didn't respond

I reply when I feel like it. I'm quite a procrastinator, so sometimes I just get around to do it quite late.

How hot would the surface have to be to vaporize a 100 mile deep ocean (seawater) on a planet twice the mass of Earth with a very thick atmosphere of water vapor? As for the primordial Earth, thats up for debate. The reason why its called the Hadean is because people thought the surface was too hot for water. Then they found out our earliest rock formed in water. If you are right and the crust formed before water then where is the rock that didn't form in water?

Where did you get such crazy numbers? That's nothing like primordial Earth. Such conditions would mean that Earth lost 99% of its water between that point and today. You're throwing in ridiculous premise.

 

[Birdjaguar]

100 miles deep water and atmosphere didn't pop up instantly. How were the water and atmosphere created on a huge molten sphere?

 

[Berzerker]

The pressure at 11km (over 100 Mpa) and over 400 °C is past the critical point of water. That means the water in contact with the magma will be a supercritical fluid. I am not sure what the Earth would be like if there was a layer of supercritical water at thousands of degrees between a later of liquid rock and liquid water, but I am not at all sure it would be stable.

or 'land'

the water won, the liquified rock solidified in water

Now the goalposts are shifting at interplanetary distances, quite a feat tbh

I haven't moved goalposts, I've consistently argued the Earth was bigger and had a very deep ocean. The Enuma Elish says the proto-Earth was carved in two with one half forming the Earth. The depth of the ocean is a low end guesstimate based on Europa and the frost line. A larger primordial Earth forming there would be surrounded by water.

 

[Senethro]

Low end guesstimate is doing a lot of work there.

 

[Berzerker]

100 miles deep water and atmosphere didn't pop up instantly. How were the water and atmosphere created on a huge molten sphere?

The huge molten sphere was growing at the frost line where water vapor condensed into ice just like the Norse Ymir. Look at Europa, small world with 60-80 miles of water and ice. A much larger world closer to the frost line would gather far more water. Whatever the conditions, they allowed for magma to cool in water. Not that it matters for Genesis, it says water preceded the 'dry land' (above water) and life. We got onto this tangent because Ziggy et al are convinced the water came later. Okay, where is the rock that didn't form in water?

 

[Berzerker]

Low end guesstimate is doing a lot of work there.

I think 100 is close but I see no reason why 500 would be out of the question

I'm sure Jupiter owes its size to its location near the frost line and the collisions there

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I think 100 is close but I see no reason why 500 would be out of the question

I'm sure Jupiter owes its size to its location near the frost line and the collisions there

Actually... I was watching a YT video by "Dr. Becky" (a British astrophysicist) who was rambling on why Saturn is her favorite planet, and she mentioned some stuff about the origin location and end location of the gas giants. You might find it interesting and educational:

 

[Berzerker]

I reply when I feel like it. I'm quite a procrastinator, so sometimes I just get around to do it quite late.

Where did you get such crazy numbers? That's nothing like primordial Earth. Such conditions would mean that Earth lost 99% of its water between that point and today. You're throwing in ridiculous premise.

You posted diagrams, I looked at them and asked you to explain something and you procrastinated and chastised me for not looking at your diagrams. As for your questions, the creation stories describe a division or separation of a primordial world into Heaven and Earth. That means their primordial world was larger than Earth, the Babylonian version likened it to carving a flat fish in two.

The Enuma Elish and the Norse creation story place this primordial world between Mars and Jupiter. The EE describes 3 olden gods between the Apsu (Sun) and Tiamat (biblical tehom) and 4 more beyond. The Norse said heat and ice met and Ymir formed from the drops. That describes the solar system's frost line, where water vapor condensed into ice. The asteroids straddle the frost line, inner asteroids are drier and the outer asteroids are wetter.

As for the Earth's original water, some researchers are now claiming there's so much water inside the Earth they think the planet formed surrounded by water. Europa is tiny in comparison and still has an ocean < 100 miles deep. Water was lost during the late heavy bombardment about 4 bya, but its been coming back to us slowly via impacts.

 

[Berzerker]

Actually... I was watching a YT video by "Dr. Becky" (a British astrophysicist) who was rambling on why Saturn is her favorite planet, and she mentioned some stuff about the origin location and end location of the gas giants. You might find it interesting and educational:

21 The divine brothers came together,
22 Their clamour got loud, throwing Tia-mat into a turmoil.
23 They jarred the nerves of Tia-mat,
24 And by their dancing they spread alarm in Anduruna.
25 Apsû did not diminish their clamour,
26 And Tia-mat was silent when confronted with them.
27 Their conduct was displeasing to her,
28 Yet though their behaviour was not good, she wished to spare them.

I'm familiar with the grand tack theory of planetary migrations, so were the Babylonians

a while back an astronomer noted a peculiarity in our solar system, the Earth seems to be out of order. If the Earth was placed at the asteroid belt the planets roughly follow a 1:2 ratio in distance from the Sun. Mercury > Venus > Mars > asteroids > Jupiter > Saturn > Uranus (but not Neptune).

 

[Sarin]

You posted diagrams, I looked at them and asked you to explain something and you procrastinated and chastised me for not looking at your diagrams. As for your questions, the creation stories describe a division or separation of a primordial world into Heaven and Earth. That means their primordial world was larger than Earth, the Babylonian version likened it to carving a flat fish in two.

The Enuma Elish and the Norse creation story place this primordial world between Mars and Jupiter. The EE describes 3 olden gods between the Apsu (Sun) and Tiamat (biblical tehom) and 4 more beyond. The Norse said heat and ice met and Ymir formed from the drops. That describes the solar system's frost line, where water vapor condensed into ice. The asteroids straddle the frost line, inner asteroids are drier and the outer asteroids are wetter.

As for the Earth's original water, some researchers are now claiming there's so much water inside the Earth they think the planet formed surrounded by water. Europa is tiny in comparison and still has an ocean < 100 miles deep. Water was lost during the late heavy bombardment about 4 bya, but its been coming back to us slowly via impacts.

You failed elementary physics, didn't you...because that, or selective blindness, are the only explanations I can think of.

Show me the point on these diagrams where liquid water and liquid silicon dioxide can coexist. Not supercritical water, actual liquid.

As for those "some scientists" of yours, do you realize that Earth's mantle is not a static thing? New material is pouring in from the depths and burying old material, descending into the bowels of Earth to be heated up and ascend again...and in the end, most of Earth's surface is less than a billion years old. Few fragments survive such cycle without some serious changes. That's why there are so many minerals that absorb water and bring it down to be trapped under the surface. They either formed when they were churned out into the ocean or water body, or they absorbed ambient moisture (many minerals are hygroscopic).

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I'm familiar with the grand tack theory of planetary migrations, so were the Babylonians

So you stick your nose in the air at a university-educated astrophycist with a doctorate and say the Babylonians knew more than she does?

Oh, right. Your space aliens gave telescopes to the Babylonians so they found planets the Enlightenment-era astronomers couldn't find without telescopes because they are not visible to the naked eye.

Berzerker, this is someone who cackles over the efforts to reclassify Pluto as a planet. She has no room for anything that isn't CURRENT theory or fact. If you were to tell her your ideas of the formation of the solar system and Earth, she'd fall off her chair, laughing - and show it in the blooper section of her videos.

a while back an astronomer noted a peculiarity in our solar system, the Earth seems to be out of order. If the Earth was placed at the asteroid belt the planets roughly follow a 1:2 ratio in distance from the Sun. Mercury > Venus > Mars > asteroids > Jupiter > Saturn > Uranus (but not Neptune).

Which astronomer? Citation and link, please.