lovett
Deity
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Except, ya know, the US isn't a tribal non-technological society with a rural environmentalist population. Those are pretty much the most obvious features about the Na'Vi.
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- Thread starter MobBoss
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Except, ya know, the US isn't a tribal non-technological society with a rural environmentalist population. Those are pretty much the most obvious features about the Na'Vi.
Ecofarm
Deity
Already got that covered. Two pages ago.
I suppose I should have said "The CCP/Chinese people are not communist". Basically, noone is communist. Nice argument. If there are no communists, then obviously capitalism is to blame for everything because there is nothing else. Communism cannot be blamed for anything or have anything attributed to it OR associated with it, because it does not exist. That's the best you got?
aelf
Ashen One
And obviously your response is horrible. Just because the CCP is not representative of Communism doesn't mean that no one is Communist, nor does it mean that all baddies are capitalists. That seems to be pretty much a textbook case of a strawman.
In any case, if something is the truth, surely there's nothing wrong with stating it? I mean, look at the evidence, not the name.
But you can have the last word, since this is so far removed from the topic of the thread and I don't want to continue this back-and-forth.
Ecofarm
Deity
OK, I will.
We've already had (1) "semantics" and (2) "there is no communism", so I guess we are done for now. Capitalist haters never have anything beyond that except (3) "let's not continue".
Where do you people get this script? I don't remember seeing it in the manifesto.
aelf
Ashen One
Alright, if you really wish to accuse me of running away from the debate, fine. How intelligent and mature.
Ecofarm
Deity
No. I get the last word. You promised.
BasketCase
Username sez it all
So what? Cameron says the Na'Vi represent the indigenous peoples of the real-world Earth who have been stepped on by industrialized nations, and here's a news flash: neither the Native Americans, nor the Iraqis, nor the Afghanis, nor India, nor Iran, nor Africa, nor any other real-world indigenous people--NONE of them are blue-skinned aliens who have sex by plugging USB cables into each others' brains.
Science fiction is about using your imagination. Evidently my previous joke about not spraining said imagination wasn't so far off the mark.
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Movie: Unterdog vs Uberdog, sympathy for unterdog is given.
For me the morale of the movie I distilled out of it with my superiour morale distilling skills was: big girls are easy.
For me the morale of the movie I distilled out of it with my superiour morale distilling skills was: big girls are easy.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Yeah, and by somehow finding an unkind connection to what happened in Haiti really says a lot about *your* imagination.
I mean c'mon, was that really necessary?
I could find similarities between 9/11 victims and the Predator, doesn't mean it's a good idea to start typing the first thing that comes into my head.
BasketCase
Username sez it all
Yes, warpus, it was very necessary.
The thing you're missing is that it was not me, but THE MOVIE that created an unkind connection. The Na'Vi doomed a planet of TWENTY BILLION PEOPLE (at a guess: in the sequel, the human race is not gonna be happy about that--they will come back to Pandora, and they will be PISSED THE HELL OFF). The connection I made, between the U.S. and Haiti, is a much more pleasant one: we, the U.S./Na'Vi, are willingly sharing our unobtainium, at a pretty hefty cost to ourselves.
Now, here's a real-world analogy that parallels the movie almost exactly: the U.S. and North Korea (I mentioned this before, but apparently you didn't get the memo). North Korea is very literally a dying world, much more so than Haiti. North Korea didn't get whacked by a single disaster, it has been dying and starving for half a century. North Korea been looking outside their borders for an economic boost. They are mostly looking to the U.S.--and they are threatening nuclear war. And, just like in the movie, the U.S. is telling them they can go neural-queue each other.
The symbols in the movie don't only represent indigenous peoples who got stomped on. They ask a much wider question: when you have something that somebody else desperately needs, should you share or not?
It's not as simple a question as most Avatar fans wish it was. For example, any naturalist worth his salt can tell you that you should not share food with wild animals, because the animals start to become dependent on humans and lose their ability to survive on their own.
Unrelated side note: while surfing further on "The Blues" (the frequent cases of depression experienced by people after seeing the movie), I had a revelation. I found a number of people who wished to live the way the Na'Vi do. Well, here's the problem: the only way we can have Pandora out here in the real world is to accept the existence of predators who eat humans. Guess what, warpie, that's never gonna happen. No intelligent creature can abide the existence of predators; the only reason all other prey animals put up with predators is because they don't have opposable thumbs and have no power to change their lot. Humans will never accept any of the available methods to control our population. Living in harmony with nature?? Hmmph. Not gonna happen. Ever.
Edit: here's a little something to read about what happens when we humans get friendly and cuddly with our fellow living creatures (in this article, deer). Their population explodes out of control and they become a problem.
The thing you're missing is that it was not me, but THE MOVIE that created an unkind connection. The Na'Vi doomed a planet of TWENTY BILLION PEOPLE (at a guess: in the sequel, the human race is not gonna be happy about that--they will come back to Pandora, and they will be PISSED THE HELL OFF). The connection I made, between the U.S. and Haiti, is a much more pleasant one: we, the U.S./Na'Vi, are willingly sharing our unobtainium, at a pretty hefty cost to ourselves.
Now, here's a real-world analogy that parallels the movie almost exactly: the U.S. and North Korea (I mentioned this before, but apparently you didn't get the memo). North Korea is very literally a dying world, much more so than Haiti. North Korea didn't get whacked by a single disaster, it has been dying and starving for half a century. North Korea been looking outside their borders for an economic boost. They are mostly looking to the U.S.--and they are threatening nuclear war. And, just like in the movie, the U.S. is telling them they can go neural-queue each other.
The symbols in the movie don't only represent indigenous peoples who got stomped on. They ask a much wider question: when you have something that somebody else desperately needs, should you share or not?
It's not as simple a question as most Avatar fans wish it was. For example, any naturalist worth his salt can tell you that you should not share food with wild animals, because the animals start to become dependent on humans and lose their ability to survive on their own.
Unrelated side note: while surfing further on "The Blues" (the frequent cases of depression experienced by people after seeing the movie), I had a revelation. I found a number of people who wished to live the way the Na'Vi do. Well, here's the problem: the only way we can have Pandora out here in the real world is to accept the existence of predators who eat humans. Guess what, warpie, that's never gonna happen. No intelligent creature can abide the existence of predators; the only reason all other prey animals put up with predators is because they don't have opposable thumbs and have no power to change their lot. Humans will never accept any of the available methods to control our population. Living in harmony with nature?? Hmmph. Not gonna happen. Ever.
Edit: here's a little something to read about what happens when we humans get friendly and cuddly with our fellow living creatures (in this article, deer). Their population explodes out of control and they become a problem.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
BasketCase
Username sez it all
For examples of good sci-fi, ref.: Star Trek TOS and TNG.
Something special to note about Star Trek is that Gene Roddenberry didn't need to resort to old stereotypes in order to write his stuff. There were good humans and bad humans, good aliens and bad aliens. People that had actual personalities instead of being the cardboard cutouts of Avatar. And Star Trek didn't need to resort to the old stereotypes of businesses and corporations. Sometimes it did, with the Ferengi, but they didn't show up in very many episodes and the series was able to create plenty of stories and conflicts that had nothing to do with business, corporations, or money at all.
In fact, TNG actually rendered such things obsolete with matter replicator technology.
On the side, enthusiasts may wish to consider this episode of Star Trek TNG--which happens to parallel Avatar pretty closely. And in which the natives decide to take the opposite course when faced with alien incursion: just leave.
Something special to note about Star Trek is that Gene Roddenberry didn't need to resort to old stereotypes in order to write his stuff. There were good humans and bad humans, good aliens and bad aliens. People that had actual personalities instead of being the cardboard cutouts of Avatar. And Star Trek didn't need to resort to the old stereotypes of businesses and corporations. Sometimes it did, with the Ferengi, but they didn't show up in very many episodes and the series was able to create plenty of stories and conflicts that had nothing to do with business, corporations, or money at all.
In fact, TNG actually rendered such things obsolete with matter replicator technology.
On the side, enthusiasts may wish to consider this episode of Star Trek TNG--which happens to parallel Avatar pretty closely. And in which the natives decide to take the opposite course when faced with alien incursion: just leave.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Dude, most (all?) of the TOS races are based on various human ethnic groups/cultures.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Avatar is now only just over 200 million away from Titanic for the all-time worldwide boxoffice crown.
Its still being sold out here in the Pacific NW for Imax and often for the 3d shows.
Its still being sold out here in the Pacific NW for Imax and often for the 3d shows.
Huayna Capac357
Deity
I kinda want to see it again to help it beat Titanic 
BasketCase
Username sez it all
Once again: so what? So are the Na'Vi. The Na'Vi are based on the politically-correct environmentalist culture right here on real-world Earth.
Since my previous post, more of my memory banks have kicked into gear, and I've realized something. Last post I only linked to a single Star Trek episode that explores the same theme as Avatar. What I've realized is that the Star Trek franchise has actually visted this same theme many times. And here's what makes Star Trek so much better than Avatar: Star Trek has taken the theme in different directions. Sometimes the Na'Vi win; sometimes they lose (as happened in that one episode I linked). Sometimes the Na'Vi are the good guys; sometimes the Na'Vi are the BAD GUYS. Hell, sometimes the FEDERATION is the bad guys.
Sometimes the native peoples are so evil and rotten that the Federation decides intervention is the right thing to do. In several episodes, the Federation ignores the Prime Directive, in order to either accomplish some larger good, prod the natives in the right direction, or simply exterminate them. And in one episode, the Federation is legally permitted to deport the natives because the Prime Directive doesn't apply.
And then there's the box office flop Insurrection. Guess what, folks, Insurrection IS Avatar, down to a T. Indigenous people (the Baku), hostile takeover (the Sona), corrupt government officials (the Federation goes sour in this movie), and a group of dissidents who switch sides and defend the natives. (Why was Insurrection a flop and Avatar a blockbuster? Simple: special effects. That's all.)
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Well, its official. Avatar has passed Titanic for the world boxoffice record. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2414728620100124
John, that was one of the worst predictions ever. Hehe.
John, that was one of the worst predictions ever. Hehe.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
What do you mean, so what? Don't you remember what you wrote a couple posts above?
BasketCase said:
He did.
BasketCase
Username sez it all
In order from top to bottom: I already explained myself sufficiently, and no he did not. GR came up with a whole lot of better and more original stuff than you see in most modern sci-fi. The stereotypes of corrupt businessmen and greedy corporations are two of THE oldest stereotypes in entertainment history, and GR hardly ever used them.
Having thought the film over some more and having accidently seen a couple of spoilers here and there, I now know what it is that really bothers me about Avatar. One of the reasons you go to a movie theater is to get away from reality. It's impossible to do that with this film; the RDA is the stereotypical military/business/corporation, and the Na'Vi are the stereotypical environmentalist hippie tree huggers (hell, even their form of sex is politically correct). Both sides are just too damn close to home.
Having thought the film over some more and having accidently seen a couple of spoilers here and there, I now know what it is that really bothers me about Avatar. One of the reasons you go to a movie theater is to get away from reality. It's impossible to do that with this film; the RDA is the stereotypical military/business/corporation, and the Na'Vi are the stereotypical environmentalist hippie tree huggers (hell, even their form of sex is politically correct). Both sides are just too damn close to home.
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