Thanks Longasc, i needed a giggle today 
Bad news: Next patch on hold
- Thread starter player1 fanatic
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CyberChrist
You caught my attention
You lack of knowledge regarding this kind of shows that you are no fan of the Civ series yourself - else you would know about the past debate on Firaxis original promise of Multiplayer in Civ3 from first release. But lets not start that particular debate up again as some of the people fiercely supporting Firaxis (like warpstorm and now also you it seems) in just about ANYTHING they say or decide to do or not to do will no doubt adamantly and in no uncertain tone say otherwise.Trip said:I never heard anything about vanilla Civ 3 having MP.
If you did, I'd love to hear where.
CyberChrist
You caught my attention
You just pull those numbers right out of the air don't you - no real research or actual foundation on any kind of facts (except perhaps the sales numbers), eh?Trip said:
Heh.
I am personally responsible for many sales of Civ3 to persons not visiting here or any other place related to Civ, by convincing them it is a product of quality and worth investing in. At the same time I made them aware of the minor problems with the product but reassured them these would be fixed. What if I don't see any reason to convincing them to buy Civ4 (in fact quite possible advicing against it) AND without these problems being fixed as was promised? What do you think the chance are they will acutally choose to buy Civ4 then?
Btw then I am no salesman in a computershop or anything like that, the people I recommended buying Civ3 are people I know personally. I am sure I am not the only Civ fan visiting CFC/Apolyton that have recommended Civ3 to friends and family making people that would probably never have bought Civ3 on their own accord actually go out and buy the game.
This is where word of mouth plays in and this is why ignoring the fans can easily have a greater negative effect than any raw numbers might initially indicate.
Exactly what do you base that assumption on? A few things you should consider regarding those that do as you suggest (however many or few they may be).
1. Why would someone a stranger to Civ3 suddenly start watching the progress of Civ4 (not saying they might not pick it up in shop on impulse of course)? And someone not a stranger to Civ3 would know about the problems surely.
2. Why would anyone following a release of a program not check out the previous programs of series also?
3. People talk about new exciting release and when people talk other people answer, and since people most often talk to people with similar interrests about such things it could easily happen that some of the people answering had knowledge about prior releases and the problems with those.
4. What makes you think the problems of the previous releases of a series would not be discussed on the forums for the new release - and surely anyone following a new release closely would get around to reading some of those.
5. Why would those following release of a program not also read the previews and reviews of a game - and some of those would surely comment on the past performance/customer support of a company and any problems related to previous releases ... especially considering this is the next in a series.
No, you are wrong to assume that word does not get around about past performance or lack of the same and that this has less impact on reputation than pushing release date of new product a few months. If the product is brilliant when finally released there is virtually no damage done to reputation of the company calling the delays - quite the opposite as most people realize that the delay is the reason they are holding a more complete and unbugged product not needing to be patched to work properly.
There are several examples of this being the truth out there - people would rather wait a while longer for a working product than get a flawed one on time.
Slax
Prince
Civ3:Complete - another product hurried out the door and onto shelves while known problems remain unfixed. Typical.
This thread perfectly illustrates what's wrong with the software "industry." And there are a couple of ways you can go about discussing it.
For instance, company says that they need to allocate resources on "more profitable" issues, ie civ3 complete. And by doing so, that somehow excuses their behavior of putting forth an incomplete product. But, because they need those resources somewhere else, as far as the company is concerned, its justified. Any criticism of that action, is just dismissed as sort of "whining."
Yet, when joe consumer decides to be "more profitable" by downloading games for free, he is roundly crticized. Without turning this into an ethics discourse on the merits of downloading games, the underlying logic is the same. Joe consumer is just reallocating his resources to whats more profitable for him.
Or, another thing. The software industry (along with other certain industries like the music industry) occupies a unique niche in society, and benefits from that unique niche enormously. Company can put out a shiny new product, full of bugs, lots of people buy it because its got shiny new ads, and its the new "hip" game to have. But, after a couple days of playing, joe consumer finds that the game is so buggy, its not worth the 50 bucks he paid for it. Problem is, joe consumer can't return the product. If I own a hardware store and sell powerdrills, and joe consumer buys one and finds out in 3 days that the model he bought, doesn't have sufficient power to do the job he needs, he can bring the drill back and get a refund. Hell, craftsman has a lifetime guarantee on its tools.
That option isn't always available in the software industry. Just like if you buy a music cd that sucks, you can't really return it and get your money back. You buy a buggy game, that for whatever reason company x doesn't patch, and the consumer has no recourse, other than to not buy their "next" game. Well, that's fine and all, but joe consumer shouldn't have to be the one to bear the brunt of the company's 'reallocation' of resources to their "next" project. That's putting the consumer in the weakest possible position.
This isn't to say that I'm unhappy with civ3/ptw/conquests. I don't play them as much as some of you do (its kind of amazing how much some of you seem to play, i can only squeeze in a couple hours every two or three nights, thanks to real world responsibilities, but i stil have a blast playing them). I still struggle to win on monarch level, and don't quite see the bugs mentioned here as deal breakers like some of you do (though, i'll be honest, i've also never triggered an unwanted war by running over an enemy sub). While those kinds of bugs are horrible, they are also not unmanageable. Just reload that turn and steer clear of that sub. I know its a work around, but its easily dealt with, if no patch comes. The ai strategy holes, army bug, whatever, may be more damaging, I dunno.
But what I said above about the industry, still stands as the glaring problem with what consumers have to deal with today.
For instance, company says that they need to allocate resources on "more profitable" issues, ie civ3 complete. And by doing so, that somehow excuses their behavior of putting forth an incomplete product. But, because they need those resources somewhere else, as far as the company is concerned, its justified. Any criticism of that action, is just dismissed as sort of "whining."
Yet, when joe consumer decides to be "more profitable" by downloading games for free, he is roundly crticized. Without turning this into an ethics discourse on the merits of downloading games, the underlying logic is the same. Joe consumer is just reallocating his resources to whats more profitable for him.
Or, another thing. The software industry (along with other certain industries like the music industry) occupies a unique niche in society, and benefits from that unique niche enormously. Company can put out a shiny new product, full of bugs, lots of people buy it because its got shiny new ads, and its the new "hip" game to have. But, after a couple days of playing, joe consumer finds that the game is so buggy, its not worth the 50 bucks he paid for it. Problem is, joe consumer can't return the product. If I own a hardware store and sell powerdrills, and joe consumer buys one and finds out in 3 days that the model he bought, doesn't have sufficient power to do the job he needs, he can bring the drill back and get a refund. Hell, craftsman has a lifetime guarantee on its tools.
That option isn't always available in the software industry. Just like if you buy a music cd that sucks, you can't really return it and get your money back. You buy a buggy game, that for whatever reason company x doesn't patch, and the consumer has no recourse, other than to not buy their "next" game. Well, that's fine and all, but joe consumer shouldn't have to be the one to bear the brunt of the company's 'reallocation' of resources to their "next" project. That's putting the consumer in the weakest possible position.
This isn't to say that I'm unhappy with civ3/ptw/conquests. I don't play them as much as some of you do (its kind of amazing how much some of you seem to play, i can only squeeze in a couple hours every two or three nights, thanks to real world responsibilities, but i stil have a blast playing them). I still struggle to win on monarch level, and don't quite see the bugs mentioned here as deal breakers like some of you do (though, i'll be honest, i've also never triggered an unwanted war by running over an enemy sub). While those kinds of bugs are horrible, they are also not unmanageable. Just reload that turn and steer clear of that sub. I know its a work around, but its easily dealt with, if no patch comes. The ai strategy holes, army bug, whatever, may be more damaging, I dunno.
But what I said above about the industry, still stands as the glaring problem with what consumers have to deal with today.
Arizona_Steve
King
Tell 'em to send me the source code and I'll fix it. Seriously. I have 15 years of programming experience.
warpstorm said:
I may be wrong here. But I thought the original Atari folded years ago.Firaxis bought the name a few years back and decided to re-badge it last year on a global scale. As many people remember the name Atari worldwide.
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
Harrier, Infogrames bought the name, not Firaxis
Guess they needed a different name after all the French-bashing at that time...
Seriously, I think the code isn't that easy to fix, at least implementing the SciGA should be pretty painful. I cannot imagine they hand over the code (not even Civ1 is free), and I don't think Firaxis has more than maybe 5 programmers able to do that job as well, and they are occupied. Sad. I just was hoping for a small fix of most likely easy issues like AI build preferences or the editor.
Arizona_Steve
King
After seeing the trail of borked releases, untested additions in patches and game-breaking bugs, I am absolutely convinced I can do a better job. My day job is programming for a major bank, and to be honest, I would be summarily dismissed if I screwed things up as much.
There are probably several dozen people here who could do better.
just like to say i have been playing civ now for a few years, i did'nt buy PTW because of all the bad rewiews it got, kind of gave me a bad feeling towards FIRAXIS and in consequence to the game itself, i bought conquests a few months after it was released hoping that by then any large problems would have been fixed. These days i am only playing modded versions. As far as civ4 is concerned sure i am interested in what it will be like but i am in no rush to buy what could likely be a faulty game i will wait read rewiews check out civfanatics and keep on enjoying playing the excellent modded games that are being made by talented people who have a passion for what is in my opinion still the best game of its type.
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
Arizona_Steve:
I'm convinced a number of members on this board could do the the job 'better', if 'better' isn't measured by 'efficiency', i.e. minimal amount of time, only by the outcome.
And yes, I think the perfect solution for the problem would be to hand over the relevant parts to a small group of volunteers; I think it wouldn't need more then an hour to name those, they sign a NDA, do the job, release it on the fan-sites, Firaxis gets the fame for such a generous act, but isn't responsible for any new bugs.
Sounds so easy, I must miss something :hm:
Maybe Firaxis simply may not release the code for legal issues ?
I'm convinced a number of members on this board could do the the job 'better', if 'better' isn't measured by 'efficiency', i.e. minimal amount of time, only by the outcome.
And yes, I think the perfect solution for the problem would be to hand over the relevant parts to a small group of volunteers; I think it wouldn't need more then an hour to name those, they sign a NDA, do the job, release it on the fan-sites, Firaxis gets the fame for such a generous act, but isn't responsible for any new bugs.
Sounds so easy, I must miss something :hm:
Maybe Firaxis simply may not release the code for legal issues
?JonFitt
Chieftain
wvfoos said:
Returning media products is always going to be difficult. The reason is basically that many people (in my experience usually only kids who don't have that much money to spend) would buy a product (cd, dvd, game) copy it, and then return it. Tut, tut, tut. Even if they don't copy it, you could buy a DVD watch it and return it, working your way through all the shop's DVDs until you found one you "liked". You could hardly copy a power drill (Excepting buying one, doing the DIY and then returning it until you need to do some more DIY
). Most people are honest though I think, I don't return things unless I genuinely don't like it, or it doesn't work.Which brings me to my next point. In the UK Virgin Megastores will refund money on CDs for pretty much any reason, including "it's crap" (HMV do not btw, they are bastards about that. They don't even exchange duplicate christmas gifts with receipts). Also where games are concerned Electronics Boutique (now GAME), will offer a full refund for any reason within 10 days, which gives you time to find most crippling bugs (I admit you'd never work out complicated Civ3 bugs in that time, but this is a general point).
I don't know about EB in the US, but I know CD stores don't accept refunds which I offer my commiserations for. However, even if a store doesn't want to perform a refund on a game, in the UK (and prob the US), you would be able to get a refund on a seriously bugged game, so long as you claimed that this made it 'faulty'. For instance if your computer meets the min specs, but it won't actually work on your graphics card (Unreal 2). You could extend this quite far, if you claimed that a Civ3 bug made it unplayable as far as you were concerned. They might put up resistance, but you have reasonably legal ground.
JonFitt
Chieftain
Just a quick addition.
Some people seem confused by the Atari-Firaxis arrangement.
Atari are the publisher. They fund the development, distribute the game, and give the developers a hard time. They are the record company.
Firaxis are the developers. They write the code and produce the product and decide what to spend time on, etc. They are the recording artist.
So if an Eminem album sucks (it's on the radio), do you blame Eminem or the record company that forced him to rush it out and cut corners?
Admitedly, games publishers are much more involved than record companies, they influence content a lot more, and force timeframes, etc. but at the end of the day it is the developers who write the code and are the ones who should make sure their product is finished properly.
Some people seem confused by the Atari-Firaxis arrangement.
Atari are the publisher. They fund the development, distribute the game, and give the developers a hard time. They are the record company.
Firaxis are the developers. They write the code and produce the product and decide what to spend time on, etc. They are the recording artist.
So if an Eminem album sucks (it's on the radio), do you blame Eminem or the record company that forced him to rush it out and cut corners?
Admitedly, games publishers are much more involved than record companies, they influence content a lot more, and force timeframes, etc. but at the end of the day it is the developers who write the code and are the ones who should make sure their product is finished properly.
This is really the first time I am disappointed about Firaxis. I was thinking they had a kind of idealism towards making good and stable games, at least after a few patches, but obviously they are just thinking in numbers like 99.5% of all game developement companies do.
Guess I'm going back to being a Paradox Entertainment fan. They sell buggy strategy games, but at least they patch it until it works perfectly. And they are much smaller than Firaxis.
See you in Civ IV anyhow, sigh.
Guess I'm going back to being a Paradox Entertainment fan. They sell buggy strategy games, but at least they patch it until it works perfectly.
And they are much smaller than Firaxis.See you in Civ IV anyhow, sigh.
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
While most ppl will blame the Artist, it's mostly the industry which should be targeted today, especially since there's hardly any artist in any charts who wrote the song by him/herself, or even is able to play an instrument. So your analogy proves the opposite you meant (at least to me).
JonFitt
Chieftain
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
Sorry dude, but that's not accurate. The analogy is exactly the same between devs and publishers as artists to record companies. I think I get what you're saying in that record companies put far too much pressure on a lot of artists to produce what they want to sell rather than what they might like to produce. But this is exactly the same with games, publishers often force developers into unrealistic timeframes and try to influence content. (I.e "A tile based strategy game set in ancient Japan, you say? How about making it a first person shooter with Nazis."
) So I see what you're saying, there is blame to be placed on the publishers certainly.But.
When it comes to product quality i.e. writing code which works the way you intend (and is what people are concerned about in this thread), (and in the analogy this corresponds to making sure your record doesn't sound like it was recorded in a bucket) it is ultimately the responsibility of the dev/artist to correct.
It's their baby, and they should have more pride in their creation. I know of companies whose employees still enhance their games years after production on their own time. They've spent 100s of man hours on this, you think they'd want to polish it off.
The analogy is not valid for manufactured bands, but then I did use the term "artist", so they don't count anyway
Btw, I don't know where you are, but here in the UK the charts are full of real bands producing great music. I'm listening to the Glastonbury coverage and there are some excellent bands out there
As an aside on my analogy, games developers are lucky we even tolorate such copious use of patches, can you imagine having to download a revised drum beat for Abbey Road 1.25?! But that's a whole other issue.
Sparrow3
Prince
It occurs to me that if Civ3 - Complete really is a bundling of Civ3 + expansions; the programmers might want to fix certain bugs in the Conquests code before release. This being the case, I would think they would have all the basic code for a new C3C patch.
player1 fanatic
Fanatic
Consdering that "hold on patch" is done just now, and not months ago when 1.22 is released, it's pretty possibile that some progress (complications included), after 1.22 is made. Just not enough to be good for release.
So, it's possibile that later, when some Firaxis resourses get freed up, patch actually gets finished up.
So, it's possibile that later, when some Firaxis resourses get freed up, patch actually gets finished up.
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