Balance Factors

[JosEPh_II]

The amount of turns to reach a tech is quite long even for the gamespeed I'm on.

Which is what Marathon, 8,000 turns?

Looking through the civics, most of them inflict -5% research to all cities and/or capital and some even have both, which the capital, being the only city, is impacted by. Then you have a few giving +1% research and +3% research. Which is kinda funny with all these -5%s.

And both, before raxo took an axe to research giving buildings by reducing their % modifiers down to 1%, of those +1 and +3% 'ers were a bigger boost.

I take it your game play has not come close to Tribalism yet. Else you would see the strategy and interconnectedness of those early Civics especially the 1st 9. How they chip away at the initial Civics (in many categories) starting malus for being... well primitive. This is just a bit broader approach to the way early Civics used to strangle early progress by using +50% maint malus (or bigger) thru DtP and NumCity Modifier tags. And excessive on on all of them as well.

Another problem is I can not balance Civics for the slowest game speeds. To do so you would have to eliminate the 6 faster GS from the mod. And if the order is given to make those last 4 slowest GS the Only way to play C2C....well... then I'm probably done with the Mod. Once you go past 8,000 turns the whole mod becomes too warped. The evidence of this is staring the whole team in the face thru Pit's UEM scenario. How many Players that use his scenario are in the Ren Era by 4000 turns of a 20,000 turn GS? Almost all are. But by the pacing for a 20,000 turn GS they should Not even be close to Ren Era at 4000 turns.

So what I suggest to you is play a test game on Long or Epic. Or better yet on Normal. And evaluate up thru the getting of Tribalism and really up thru Agriculture. By that time you have had the opportunity to make 13 Civic changes.

Now all this said does Not mean that I will not re-evaluate what you say. I Am and I Will. But you need to try to see the whole picture not just how it "feels" on Marathon. Understand the reasoning behind this? I hope so, but then....maybe not. Because you have bought in to the mindset that an 8,000 turn game of C2C should be the norm. And I will not buy that.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm on long game speed and its taking between 12 and 36 rounds per tech. I am headed for piercing, chopping and the like. A total of about -80% research from civics is feeling a bit too severe.

 

[raxo2222]

And both, before raxo took an axe to research giving buildings by reducing their % modifiers down to 1%, of those +1 and +3% 'ers were a bigger boost.

I halved those, same with gold modifiers.

It was research modifiers from resources (for example building X gets +5% with Copper or something like that), that I reduced to +1%

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm on long game speed and its taking between 12 and 36 rounds per tech. I am headed for piercing, chopping and the like. A total of about -80% research from civics is feeling a bit too severe.

And it will. It was taking almost as long on Normal too. But after you get past Tribalism it picks up steam rather quickly. And continues the roll on thru Ancient Era. EDIT: But as you get to Tribalism the next 3 or so Civic you will unlock from where you are now will easy the load.

Look you can not get a fair evaluation by only judging the start of the game before you can expand. Even Noriad said as much, that after he hit Ancient Era the research pace quickened considerably. But he still feels that Gold, in his opinion, on NM Deity is still too much for this timeframe in a Long or Epic game.

This is why I had to start all over. Raxo's 3 Major axe jobs on Buildings Totally changed Everything.

EDIT: and All feedback Is being accepted and evaluated Before I make any changes.

 

[Thunderbrd]

And it will. It was taking almost as long on Normal too. But after you get past Tribalism it picks up steam rather quickly. And continues the roll on thru Ancient Era. EDIT: But as you get to Tribalism the next 3 or so Civic you will unlock from where you are now will easy the load.

Look you can not get a fair evaluation by only judging the start of the game before you can expand. Even Noriad said as much, that after he hit Ancient Era the research pace quickened considerably. But he still feels that Gold, in his opinion, on NM Deity is still too much for this timeframe in a Long or Epic game.

This is why I had to start all over. Raxo's 3 Major axe jobs on Buildings Totally changed Everything.

EDIT: and All feedback Is being accepted and evaluated Before I make any changes.

Well... I just confirmed I AM on Marathon so it was longer than I thought. That said, I am only looking at this section of play and the balance between production and research is off and it's off in a way I can't fix with an era adjustment because, as you say, later it really eases up.

If 1 and 3% modifiers in the positive are making a significant difference, then why must we be having -5&-10% modifiers at this point?(I call it -10% when a civic is penalizing both all cities and the capital with -5% and both are applying to your only city.) Particularly since there are 13 total unavoidable sources of -5% research from civics that are applying? (-65%!) With that many sources, if they were reduced to -3% each, that would still total to -39% (then +4% from the +1 and +3% sources from other civics). At that point it might be a lot more in step with the expectations that the production costs set for the research achievement rates throughout this period AND it would leave room for the improvements you're talking about.

I'm not worried about the game experience of it taking so long to achieve techs. The problem is that you end up having nothing to do with your production, when it's supposed to actually be a little challenging to get all those buildings constructed at this stage. It was recently too far the other way, I agree, during this time span. I'm just suggesting it's a little TOO severe as it's currently set and it's achieving that status by a lot of little mods, not any one thing. This game has terrible production in my capital (1st plot is 1 hammer and 2nd is 2), yet I was seriously considering setting myself to idle for some rounds.

There are not yet any research % giving buildings yet at this stage so Rax's changes are not yet a part of this.

Gold, however, is spot on. Exactly 0+/- at 100% research.

EDIT: Well I do see how my usual beelining that ignores the oral tradition civic could be adjusted and create a very different research rate result. This may not be QUITE as bad as I'm thinking - just forcing a different approach than I'm used to.

 

[Anq]

I can't package yet anyhow since I still get thousands of errors on the VS setup.

After you update to svn-r10654:
Go to Project Properties -> NMake -> IntelliSense include search path and you see:

include;C:\Program Files\Microsoft Platform SDK\Include;C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual C++ Toolkit 2003\include​

The first path is xerces headers. The second path you should edit to your windows sdk (xp-2003) location. The last path to your toolkit standard library location.
If the above doesn't work, please consider reverting your local changes to the .vcxproj file, and then redo the step above for all three configurations (Debug, Final_Release, Release)

I hope this solves your thousands of errors. I know it's prohibiting you from reading the code although the building output isn't impacted.

 

[Thunderbrd]

After you update to svn-r10654:
Go to Project Properties -> NMake -> IntelliSense include search path and you see:

include;C:\Program Files\Microsoft Platform SDK\Include;C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual C++ Toolkit 2003\include​

The first path is xerces headers. The second path you should edit to your windows sdk (xp-2003) location. The last path to your toolkit standard library location.
If the above doesn't work, please consider reverting your local changes to the .vcxproj file, and then redo the step above for all three configurations (Debug, Final_Release, Release)

I hope this solves your thousands of errors. I know it's prohibiting you from reading the code although the building output isn't impacted.

So basically go here:

And set this (Include Search Path) to:

?
After all that I get:

once applied.

Note there was nothing in the Include Search Paths section here previously.

 

[Anq]

So basically go here:
View attachment 528913
And set this (Include Search Path) to:
View attachment 528914
?
After all that I get:
View attachment 528915
once applied.

Note there was nothing in the Include Search Paths section here previously.

I see the boost was included again from your output window. That one is the culprit. I think there are two places to check whether it could be unintentionally included.

1. check the intellisense include search path (point to that text field, and press the 'End' key on your keyboard) to see if a variable $(NMakeIncludeSearchPath) is appended to the end. If so, remove that variable. Sometimes it automatically appends that variable, but I also doubt if that variable really represents our makefile paths, since it doesn't provide the toolkit and windows sdk paths when I leave that variable alone but strangely provides the boost and python folders again when I add the sdk paths before it. I just couldn't tame this monster. It just wouldn't respect my settings.
2. check the include path in the "VC++ Directories" tab in the picture you show. It should be default value (with un-bolded fontface).

$(VC_IncludePath);$(WindowsSDK_IncludePath);

I previously added boost and python here so I think this could be the source of your problem. Try to revert this setting and refresh the cache a couple times (there is no explicit option to refresh that cache so you may try reopening the source files).

 

[Thunderbrd]

1. check the intellisense include search path (point to that text field, and press the 'End' key on your keyboard) to see if a variable $(NMakeIncludeSearchPath) is appended to the end. If so, remove that variable. Sometimes it automatically appends that variable, but I also doubt if that variable really represents our makefile paths, since it doesn't provide the toolkit and windows sdk paths when I leave that variable alone but strangely provides the boost and python folders again when I add the sdk paths before it. I just couldn't tame this monster. It just wouldn't respect my settings.

I deleted that last portion which was there after a ; It seems to have kept.

2. check the include path in the "VC++ Directories" tab in the picture you show. It should be default value (with un-bolded fontface).

It seems to have worked to cut down the error count a lot. I might have made a mistake with Reference Directories but it doesn't seem to have opened up more errors. If you could help me get back what's supposed to be there now that I don't know, that'd be cool.

After this last change I now only show:

So it looks like an improvement at least?

 

[Anq]

I deleted that last portion which was there after a ; It seems to have kept.

It seems to have worked to cut down the error count a lot. I might have made a mistake with Reference Directories but it doesn't seem to have opened up more errors. If you could help me get back what's supposed to be there now that I don't know, that'd be cool.
View attachment 528925
After this last change I now only show:
View attachment 528926
So it looks like an improvement at least?

I'm glad to hear this. Thanks for staying up with me. Better to keep this as is. I'm having the same number of errors on this screen here (I suppose you opened up CvArtFileMgr.h). Better to leave those symbols unresolved to avoid getting trouble again.
That Reference Directory option on my computer is:

..\Sources;$(ReferencePath)

where "..\Sources" can be viewed just as "." (current working directory of the project, or the same directory as the .vcxproj)
Reference Directory has default value of

$(VC_ReferencesPath_x86);

 

[JosEPh_II]

EDIT: Well I do see how my usual beelining that ignores the oral tradition civic could be adjusted and create a very different research rate result. This may not be QUITE as bad as I'm thinking - just forcing a different approach than I'm used to.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Was testing on a game that had already been begun before your latest round of changes.

I'm glad to hear this. Thanks for staying up with me. Better to keep this as is. I'm having the same number of errors on this screen here (I suppose you opened up CvArtFileMgr.h). Better to leave those symbols unresolved to avoid getting trouble again.
That Reference Directory option on my computer is:

..\Sources;$(ReferencePath)

where "..\Sources" can be viewed just as "." (current working directory of the project, or the same directory as the .vcxproj)
Reference Directory has default value of

$(VC_ReferencesPath_x86);

OK. It's strange that you had eliminated all of them previously but you're accepting these. Still seems like something is off here but if it really doesn't mean there's a real problem then I'll trust ya. I don't really understand any of what this is all about all that well to begin with.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Was testing on a game that had already been begun before your latest round of changes.

<snip>.

Couldn't even start a new game..................

 

[Thunderbrd]

Couldn't even start a new game..................

Why? Missing graphic references causing a crash? Odd... didn't for me when I tested.

 

[raxo2222]

Why? Missing graphic references causing a crash? Odd... didn't for me when I tested.

I think he meant, that you should have start new game after last changes to civics and culture output.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think he meant, that you should have start new game after last changes to civics and culture output.

OH... lol... yeah. That's probably what he meant.

@JosEPh_II Well the game wasn't too far in and I'd been enjoying the hunting on that one. That and I wasn't even aware civics had changed since I started. I was just playing around before the commit and it seemed Noriad's feedback was fairly accurate. After I got a few of the early techs I'd beelined past though I realized that your new setup isn't as forgiving on that as it used to be, which is actually a good thing. Once I got those techs I wasn't nearly as hindered. The -5 twice over became a +3% or something and it ended up being much easier to benefit from base + values. In addition, it enabled me to address my -5% from education finally and reverse that so in the end it wasn't quite as severe as it seemed. So although Noriad may still have somewhat of a point, I don't think it's as bad as I thought. I've been keeping production busy ever since I cleared up my earliest tech deficiencies so I must suspect that a more balanced approach to the tree is more supported now than it was. We'll see how this changes after Kation's tech changes in v39 but it should still be an improvement all in all I think.

 

[JosEPh_II]

OH... lol... yeah. That's probably what he meant.

@JosEPh_II Well the game wasn't too far in and I'd been enjoying the hunting on that one. That and I wasn't even aware civics had changed since I started. I was just playing around before the commit and it seemed Noriad's feedback was fairly accurate. After I got a few of the early techs I'd beelined past though I realized that your new setup isn't as forgiving on that as it used to be, which is actually a good thing. Once I got those techs I wasn't nearly as hindered. The -5 twice over became a +3% or something and it ended up being much easier to benefit from base + values. In addition, it enabled me to address my -5% from education finally and reverse that so in the end it wasn't quite as severe as it seemed. So although Noriad may still have somewhat of a point, I don't think it's as bad as I thought. I've been keeping production busy ever since I cleared up my earliest tech deficiencies so I must suspect that a more balanced approach to the tree is more supported now than it was. We'll see how this changes after Kation's tech changes in v39 but it should still be an improvement all in all I think.

Raxo pegged it.

And I'm pleased you are seeing what it is I'm attempting to do.

EDIT: Progress report on Main comp, Get it started this morning was able to get into Bios and change the Ram settings (from the swap out set I put in). During this I was able to get back to desktop. Then I realized I had not hooked the Cat5 back up to the router. Once I did that it went all Wonky again. So I turned it off.

But something curious happened when I hooked up the cable to the router. This back up older comp was in the middle of an SVN Updated for C2C. When I hooked up the Main comp it broke the network connection to the back up! After turning off the Main and unhooking the Cat5 for it from the router this comp was able to Update properly.

Then I restarted my main comp and it came back On to Bios. rest Bios and then as it started to load windows a windows Automatic Repair screen came up. I selected the restart Option. Which brought up a Diagnosing Computer screen. When that finished I selected Restart windows again. It has restarted and I can navigate from my desktop. This was all done With Out the Comp hooked up into the route (so no Internet or Network activity.

Now I'm going to rehook up the cable to the router and see what happens!

EDIT2: Currently logged in on main comp now. Whew!

 

[Thunderbrd]

Raxo pegged it.

And I'm pleased you are seeing what it is I'm attempting to do.

EDIT: Progress report on Main comp, Get it started this morning was able to get into Bios and change the Ram settings (from the swap out set I put in). During this I was able to get back to desktop. Then I realized I had not work the Cat5 back up to the router. Once I did that it went all Wonky again. So I turned it off.

But something curious happened when I hooked up the cable to the router. This back up older comp was in the middle of an SVN Updated for C2C. When I hooked up the Main comp it broke the network connection to the back up! After turning off the Main and unhooking the Cat5 for it from the router this comp was able to Update properly.

Then I restarted my main comp and it came back On to Bios. rest Bios and then as it started to load windows a windows Automatic Repair screen came up. I selected the restart Option. Which brought up a Diagnosing Computer screen. When that finished I selected Restart windows again. It has restarted and I can navigate from my desktop. This was all done With Out the Comp hooked up into the route (so no Internet or Network activity.

Now I'm going to rehook up the cable to the router and see what happens!

EDIT2: Currently logged in on main comp now. Whew!

Wow, that is strange. Whisperr was having trouble with a card falling out of socket recently and it sounds like it might be a similar kind of deal...

 

[JosEPh_II]

Looking back at the whole situation it was a Windows 10 Balk because I did not let the Blue Error screen automatically restart by itself. Which interrupted it sequencing command flow. Which goes to show that Microsoft does not think it's programs thru for all contingencies. What if a power failure had happened during that Blue Error screen data collection and automatic restart? Same thing would have occurred making people think that their Computer was going bad.

And windows does not like it that I won't allow Cortana to be On, nor One Drive for that matter. And I do not log in to my Microsoft account either unless absolutely necessary. Microsoft don't like people like me for wanting the old less intrusive ways. And I don't own a smart phone either!

 

[Toffer90]

And windows does not like it that I won't allow Cortana to be On, nor One Drive for that matter. And I do not log in to my Microsoft account either unless absolutely necessary. Microsoft don't like people like me for wanting the old less intrusive ways. And I don't own a smart phone either!

You and me both, though I do use OneDrive to backup certain files, it has a bigger space capacity than dropbox.