Balance Factors

[Yudishtira]

Through the miracle of ctrl-Z, I checked out Brazil the tech leader in my game, who is in lateish Modern.

He has air pollution of 2000+ in several cities. The worst one has Toxic Atmosphere, although none have Blackened Skies yet, which still occurs at above 2500.

All cities are net unhealthy, but none are net unhappy or shrinking. Water pollution is not a problem for him.

He has no Park Rangers, nor the ability to build them. He has Firearms, so is it possible he doesn't have Wildlife Conservation, despite it being a third-column Industrial tech? If you want the AI to deal with pollution better, maybe the Wildlife Conservation - Ecology 'branch' should be less dead-endish.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Water pollution has several conditions that must be met besides the level. Does the city have a River? A Coastline? Groundwater will affect all cities but these other 2 need those terrains present to work and then add in their malus.

The City with Toxic Atmosphere is in serious danger, It's pop may soon start decreasing. With just this Toxic Atmos the city is getting an added +20 Disease/turn plus it is now sending out to the whole empire a GlobalHealth of -1. This city is also getting 10 plus 10 . Now throw on top of this it is losing 10 as well. And if it has any seaplots/tiles those are losing 10 too. And no one has proven to me that the lower level Air pollutions are not adding in their malus as well since they are not replaced by the next highest.

I have told raxo that I will be reverting the entry levels back to my previous levels. Once I do so and if you update that city will have all the Air pollution Disaster events as Blackened Skies kicks in at 1950.

 

[Yudishtira]

Water pollution has several conditions that must be met besides the level. Does the city have a River? A Coastline? Groundwater will affect all cities but these other 2 need those terrains present to work and then add in their malus.

Thanks good to know, but this is about level - in the ones I checked it was not much above 200 at most.

The City with Toxic Atmosphere is in serious danger, It's pop may soon start decreasing. With just this Toxic Atmos the city is getting an added +20 Disease/turn plus it is now sending out to the whole empire a GlobalHealth of -1. This city is also getting 10 plus 10 . Now throw on top of this it is losing 10 as well. And if it has any seaplots/tiles those are losing 10 too. And no one has proven to me that the lower level Air pollutions are not adding in their malus as well since they are not replaced by the next highest.

Well, we shall see. If so, all the more reason to encourage AIs to get Park Rangers and Ecologists. Having ignored that tech line, he's probably missing out on all the relevant buildings too... It will be interesting to see whether he 'sees the light' with his next tech choice. And I confidently agree that the levels are cumulative with each other ie. that the effects of the lower-tier autobuilds are still being applied.

I have told raxo that I will be reverting the entry levels back to my previous levels. Once I do so and if you update that city will have all the Air pollution Disaster events as Blackened Skies kicks in at 1950.

If you were right to move Blackened Skies in the first place (at present I'm not disputing it), and if Raxo was right to move it further, well then you can guess where I'm going: please don't move it back, or drop the ceiling. As far as tiers 1-2 go, I'd love to see them back where they were before your original change, ie. tier 1 at 200. Assuming we all now realize as I do that there was never a reason to move them (and if not I'd like to hear about it), that would be the obvious course of action.

Since we have an ongoing experiment regarding tier 3, I'm going to leave it where it is for now, and see what happens.

 

[raxo2222]

Thanks good to know, but this is about level - in the ones I checked it was not much above 200 at most.

Well, we shall see. If so, all the more reason to encourage AIs to get Park Rangers and Ecologists. Having ignored that tech line, he's probably missing out on all the relevant buildings too... It will be interesting to see whether he 'sees the light' with his next tech choice. And I confidently agree that the levels are cumulative with each other ie. that the effects of the lower-tier autobuilds are still being applied.

If you were right to move Blackened Skies in the first place (at present I'm not disputing it), and if Raxo was right to move it further, well then you can guess where I'm going: please don't move it back, or drop the ceiling. As far as tiers 1-2 go, I'd love to see them back where they were before your original change, ie. tier 1 at 200. Assuming we all now realize as I do that there was never a reason to move them (and if not I'd like to hear about it), that would be the obvious course of action.

Since we have an ongoing experiment regarding tier 3, I'm going to leave it where it is for now, and see what happens.

Well he is revising pollution - he will revert my changes as it appears pollution isn't as bad as it seemed.
I did that because I was too cautious - I didn't want AI to implode on industrial revolution, as it now eagerly builds much more buildings including polluting ones.
I'll look at tech tree to connect wildlife preservation somewhere earlier.

I'll make Civil Engineering require Wildlife Conservation.
Then two Atomic techs won't need Wildlife Conservation and its requirement.

 

[Yudishtira]

Well he is revising pollution - he will revert my changes as it appears pollution isn't as bad as it seemed.
I did that because I was too cautious - I didn't want AI to implode on industrial revolution, as it now eagerly builds much more buildings including polluting ones.

There was never any reason to move tiers 1 and 2. For Toxic Atmosphere/Hydrosphere and Blackened Skies (and its water counterpart if there is one), you may have been right. For my existing save, I'm certainly not going to drop Blackened Skies on cities that don't even have Toxic Atmosphere yet (ie. by updating to a prospective reverted version).

I'll look at tech tree to connect wildlife preservation somewhere earlier.

I'll make Civil Engineering require Wildlife Conservation.
Then two Atomic techs won't need Wildlife Conservation and its requirement.

Nice!

 

[raxo2222]

There was never any reason to move tiers 1 and 2. For Toxic Atmosphere/Hydrosphere and Blackened Skies (and its water counterpart if there is one), you may have been right. For my existing save, I'm certainly not going to drop Blackened Skies on cities that don't even have Toxic Atmosphere yet (ie. by updating to a prospective reverted version).

I was simply multiplying pollution entry levels by 50%

 

[JosEPh_II]

As far as tiers 1-2 go, I'd love to see them back where they were before your original change, ie. tier 1 at 200.

Where does this info come from? As I don't remember them starting at 200 ever. I don't recall Hydro having them set that low. Maybe he did when he 1st introduced them into the game, But I don't remember them being that low when I took this over after he left.

 

[Yudishtira]

Where does this info come from? As I don't remember them starting at 200 ever. I don't recall Hydro having them set that low. Maybe he did when he 1st introduced them into the game, But I don't remember them being that low when I took this over after he left.

You're right, in so far as I can't find anywhere where they were that low. Actually, I can't find where Hydro initially set them at all. The only setting I can find is by DH...

As for whether the mod would benefit from them being lower, I'll keep experimenting with my 'modmod' to find out.

 

[JosEPh_II]

As for whether the mod would benefit from them being lower, I'll keep experimenting with my 'modmod' to find out.

Good idea, and keep us posted too please.

 

[Faustmouse]

I'd like if some pollution Effekte would stay even after the pollution Level dropped again to better reflect long term damage. You'd need some geo engineering buildings to get rid of them. This would also add a Strategic Element: relentless growth and long term damage or care more about the environment and take a slower growth path, but with more long term benefits.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'd like if some pollution Effekte would stay even after the pollution Level dropped again to better reflect long term damage. You'd need some geo engineering buildings to get rid of them. This would also add a Strategic Element: relentless growth and long term damage or care more about the environment and take a slower growth path, but with more long term benefits.

I wonder how that could be done...

 

[raxo2222]

I wonder how that could be done...

I guess extra autobuild with GOM Construct condition, so that building wouldn't require pollution autobuild to function but just to get built.

That is X requires Y.
Y disappears.
X stays here, as Y is GOM construct requirement - Y is only needed so X could be built.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'd like if some pollution Effekte would stay even after the pollution Level dropped again to better reflect long term damage. You'd need some geo engineering buildings to get rid of them. This would also add a Strategic Element: relentless growth and long term damage or care more about the environment and take a slower growth path, but with more long term benefits.

You have some of that already. Look at the Water and Air Pollution thread and you will see that a 1 or 2 have Replacment buildings that eliminate the mid and worst stages but don't the early, as in the case of Ozone.. But who is going to "teach" the AI to do all this? Can't get too complicated.

And Hello Faustmouse, long time no see.

 

[raxo2222]

You have some of that already. Look at the Water and Air Pollution thread and you will see that a 1 or 2 have Replacment buildings that eliminate the mid and worst stages but don't the early, as in the case of Ozone.. But who is going to "teach" the AI to do all this? Can't get too complicated.

And Hello Faustmouse, long time no see.

Acid Rain is replaced by Deacidification Station.
Minor, Moderate and Major Global Warming is removed by Climate Geoengineering.
Minor, Moderate and Major Ozone Depletion is removed by Ozone Generator
And that is all - nothing for water pollution though.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Acid Rain is replaced by Deacidification Station.
Minor, Moderate and Major Global Warming is removed by Climate Geoengineering.
Minor, Moderate and Major Ozone Depletion is removed by Ozone Generator
And that is all - nothing for water pollution though.

Minor Ozone does not have a replacement building. Just the Moderate and Major. Unless you changed that last night or today.

 

[raxo2222]

Minor Ozone does not have a replacement building. Just the Moderate and Major. Unless you changed that last night or today.

Well Minor ozone depletion always had building replacing it.

<BuildingInfo>
            <!-- Pollution (Minor Ozone Depletion) -->
            <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_POLLUTION_OZONE1</BuildingClass>
            <Type>BUILDING_POLLUTION_OZONE1</Type>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_POLLUTION_OZONE1</Description>
            <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_AIR_POLLUTION_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
            <Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_AIR_POLLUTION_STRATEGY</Strategy>
            <Advisor>ADVISOR_ECONOMY</Advisor>
            <!-- Graphical and interface -->
            <ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_POLLUTION_OZONE1</ArtDefineTag>
            <iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
            <fVisibilityPriority>1</fVisibilityPriority>
            <!-- Prerequisites -->
            <MapCategoryTypes>
                <MapCategoryType>MAPCATEGORY_EARTH</MapCategoryType>
            </MapCategoryTypes>
            <!-- Obsolescence -->
            <ReplaceBuildings>
                <ReplaceBuilding>
                    <BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_OZONE_GENERATOR</BuildingClassType>
                    <bReplace>1</bReplace>
                </ReplaceBuilding>
            </ReplaceBuildings>
            <!-- Construction cost -->
            <iCost>-1</iCost>
            <!-- Main effects -->
            <iHappiness>-1</iHappiness>
            <iHealth>-1</iHealth>
            <YieldChanges>
                <iYield>-1</iYield>
                <iYield>0</iYield>
                <iYield>-1</iYield>
            </YieldChanges>
            <!-- Special properties -->
            <bNukeImmune>1</bNukeImmune>
            <iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>
            <!-- Properties diffusion -->
            <PropertyManipulators>
                <PropertySource>
                    <PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
                    <PropertyType>PROPERTY_DISEASE</PropertyType>
                    <iAmountPerTurn>3</iAmountPerTurn>
                </PropertySource>
            </PropertyManipulators>
        </BuildingInfo>

 

[JosEPh_II]

Well Minor ozone depletion always had this building.
Maybe that is part of Pepper's module.

I guess if it "always" had this replacement building then It has to be In pepper's modules because it sure as heck is Not in the SpecialBuildings file. Which is were I pulled all that data on maluses from. Another reason to Hate Modules!

 

[JosEPh_II]

Well Minor ozone depletion always had building replacing it.

<BuildingInfo>
            <!-- Pollution (Minor Ozone Depletion) -->
            <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_POLLUTION_OZONE1</BuildingClass>
            <Type>BUILDING_POLLUTION_OZONE1</Type>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_POLLUTION_OZONE1</Description>
            <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_AIR_POLLUTION_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
            <Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_AIR_POLLUTION_STRATEGY</Strategy>
            <Advisor>ADVISOR_ECONOMY</Advisor>
            <!-- Graphical and interface -->
            <ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_POLLUTION_OZONE1</ArtDefineTag>
            <iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
            <fVisibilityPriority>1</fVisibilityPriority>
            <!-- Prerequisites -->
            <MapCategoryTypes>
                <MapCategoryType>MAPCATEGORY_EARTH</MapCategoryType>
            </MapCategoryTypes>
            <!-- Obsolescence -->
            <ReplaceBuildings>
                <ReplaceBuilding>
                    <BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_OZONE_GENERATOR</BuildingClassType>
                    <bReplace>1</bReplace>
                </ReplaceBuilding>
            </ReplaceBuildings>
            <!-- Construction cost -->
            <iCost>-1</iCost>
            <!-- Main effects -->
            <iHappiness>-1</iHappiness>
            <iHealth>-1</iHealth>
            <YieldChanges>
                <iYield>-1</iYield>
                <iYield>0</iYield>
                <iYield>-1</iYield>
            </YieldChanges>
            <!-- Special properties -->
            <bNukeImmune>1</bNukeImmune>
            <iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>
            <!-- Properties diffusion -->
            <PropertyManipulators>
                <PropertySource>
                    <PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
                    <PropertyType>PROPERTY_DISEASE</PropertyType>
                    <iAmountPerTurn>3</iAmountPerTurn>
                </PropertySource>
            </PropertyManipulators>
        </BuildingInfo>

And what File did you pull that from?

 

[raxo2222]

And what File did you pull that from?

What I copied is from SpecialBuildings_CIV4BuildingInfos.
I searched "ozone " inside and all three ozone pseudobuildings had this replacement.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Okay then I missed it when I was doing the charts.

EDIT: Charts updated with Known Replacement Buildings.