Balance issues & suggestions

[xienwolf]

You could use the Mana Chart to assume what the "opposites" are and make it so that there is a "branching block" in place. Rank 1 blocks rank 1 of the exact opposite, rank 2 blocks rank 2 of the opposite rank and the 2 "nearest neighbors" so total of 3 rank 2 spells blocked. Rank 3 blocks rank 3 of the opposite and the 4 nearest neighbors (2 on each side).

Then of the 21 spells, you can only gain 5 Rank 3 spells, evenly spaced around the tree (though deciding precisely how to arrange the clumps of 5 may get a bit... odd). You can only learn 6 Rank 2 spells, and 11 rank 1 spells.



So, actually looking at the web now, that would mean:

• Metamagic -
  1. Blocks nothing
• Air -
  1. Blocks Earth I
  2. Blocks Body II
• Body -
  1. Blocks Spirit I
  2. Blocks Air II
• Chaos -
  1. Blocks Law I
  2. Blocks Force II
  3. Blocks Mind III
• Creation -
  1. Blocks Entropy I
  2. Blocks Ice II
  3. Blocks Death III
• Dimensional -
  1. Blocks Force I
  2. Blocks Mind II
  3. Blocks Law III
• Death -
  1. Blocks Life I
  2. Blocks Creation II
  3. Blocks Nature III
• Earth -
  1. Blocks Air I
  2. Blocks Spirit II
• Enchantment -
  1. Blocks Mind I
  2. Blocks Law II
  3. Blocks Force III
• Entropy -
  1. Blocks Creation I
  2. Blocks Nature II
  3. Blocks Life III
• Fire -
  1. Blocks Water I
  2. Blocks Shadow II
• Force -
  1. Blocks Dimensional I
  2. Blocks Enchantment II
  3. Blocks Chaos III
• Ice -
  1. Blocks Nature I
  2. Blocks Life II
  3. Blocks Creation III
• Law -
  1. Blocks Chaos I
  2. Blocks Dimensional II
  3. Blocks Enchantment III
• Life -
  1. Blocks Death I
  2. Blocks Entropy II
  3. Blocks Ice III
• Mind -
  1. Blocks Enchantment I
  2. Blocks Chaos II
  3. Blocks Dimensional III
• Nature -
  1. Blocks Ice I
  2. Blocks Death II
  3. Blocks Entropy III
• Shadow -
  1. Blocks Sun I
  2. Blocks Fire II
• Spirit -
  1. Blocks Body I
  2. Blocks Earth II
• Sun -
  1. Blocks Shadow I
  2. Blocks Water II
• Water -
  1. Blocks Fire I
  2. Blocks Sun II

Abandoned the idea of going "off path" since the neighbor paths don't always lend themselves well to deciding which one of them to block first or at all, and didn't want to block the entire path of both neighbors (would have the elementals each blocking 7 other rank III spells)

 

[Valkrionn]

Hmm... I like that. So basically, as you progress along one limb of the chart, you are progressively blocking your progress down another. Although your Chaos layout may be a bit off, unless the chart in your sig is old... Looks like it should be Law->Mind->Force, rather than Law->Force->Mind.

Might also want to allow another Archmage or two, if they wouldn't be allowed to learn all the spells.

 

[xienwolf]

I tried to have the progression always move toward the middle, wrapping back to the outside when it reached Metamagic. That way it was consistent. Though I don't know if I remembered to stick with that after thinking of it

 

[Valkrionn]

Ah, makes sense.

 

[xienwolf]

Hrm, downside of that setup though is that Chaos II blocks Force II, but Force II blocks Chaos III. So if you get Force first, you can have both Force & Chaos rank 2. So it has to be set up so that Force II and Chaos II are opposed, same would need shuffled on all of the others so that they line up nicely (should only have to adjust one of the 3 on the branch in each case though if I am remembering group theory pieces properly, heading out the door so can't check to make sure it works out just now)

 

[xienwolf]

Real quick:

1 - 2 - 3 -- c - b - a

1
a
b
c

2
b
c
a

3
c
a
b

a
1
3
2

b
2
1
3

c
3
2
1


So yes, in the case I posted I had C organized improperly, it has to break the pattern on one side, but maintain it on the other.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The chart Kael posted is but one of the schemes he made. Metamagic, Force, and Dimensional (iirc) all took turns as the central, unopposed sphere. Personally, I think having Force (i.e., Balance) in the center makes the most sense.

One thing that Kael has made clear (after reading my explanation of why it should be that way) is that Ceridwen (Dimensional, Obsession, Relative Worth, Utility) and Nantosuelta (Enchantment, Faith, Intrinsic Worth, Virtue) are opposites.


I think the attached mana chart is a vast improvement. I still don't think all the similarities based on closeness are quite right, but I'm pretty sure I got all the opposites right. The only one where there is really any doubt is Mind-Metamagic, which I got by process of elimination, but I think it makes sense for them to be opposites (although I'd say the relationship seemed much more complementary than adversarial at first while most gods seem to to have had reasons to dislike their enemies from the start). Mind tend to deal with the future and Metamagc with the past. Mind wants to control where Metamagic only wants to understand. Mind deals with subjective desires and Metamagic with objective reality that planing them opposed to each other makes sense. Perhaps most convincingly, Mammon's forces invaded and wage war in Oghma's vault.


(These icons really don't fit the FfH meanings of the sphere. The Scales fit Force far better then Death. The Enchantment symbol seems much more dimensional-like, and is in fact the Obsidian Gate "airdrop" icon in FfH, which is clearly related to dimensional magic. The Owl is also a symbol of Sirona, and thus would better fit Spirit than Mind)

 

[Opera]

Hmm...

So, if one adept take Spirit I, he's blocked from Body I, right? And if he takes Spirit II, he's blocked from Earth I and Body II? And with Spirit III, from Earth II and Body III?

 

[xienwolf]

No, once you are blocked from a Promotion (ie - Body I), you aren't able to get ANY of the promotions above it either (Body II or III) as of that moment.

So Spirit I prevents Body I-III
Spirit II prevents Body I-III and Earth II&III
Spirit III prevents nothing further since it is an elemental path (short)

 

[Opera]

Ok, then. I like that

 

[Opera]

So, using Magister's Mana Map (MMM), that would mean:

• Air
  • Exclude Earth I-III;
  • Exclude Body II-III;
  • No effect;
• Body
  • Exclude Spirit I-III;
  • Exclude Air II-III;
  • No effect;
• Chaos
  • Exclude Law I-III;
  • Exclude Metamagic II-III;
  • Exclude Enchantement III;
• Creation
  • Exclude Entropy I-III;
  • Exclude Ice II-III;
  • Exclude Death III;
• Death
  • Exclude Life I-III;
  • Exclude Nature II-III;
  • Exclude Creation III;
• Dimensional
  • Exclude Enchantment I-III;
  • Exclude Law II-III;
  • Exclude Metamagic III;
• Earth
  • Exclude Air I-III;
  • Exclude Spirit II-III;
  • No effect;
• Enchantment
  • Exclude Dimensional I-III;
  • Exclude Mind II-III;
  • Exclude Chaos III;
• Entropy
  • Exclude Creation I-III;
  • Exclude Life II-III;
  • Exclude Nature III;
• Fire
  • Exclude Water I-III;
  • Exclude Shadow II-III;
  • No effect;
• Force
  • No effect;
  • No effect;
  • No effect;
• Ice
  • Exclude Nature I-III;
  • Exclude Creation II-III;
  • Exclude Life III;
• Law
  • Exclude Chaos I-III;
  • Exclude Dimensional II-III;
  • Exclude Metamagic III;
• Life
  • Exclude Death I-III;
  • Exclude Entropy II-III;
  • Exclude Ice III;
• Metamagic
  • Exclude Mind I-III;
  • Exclude Chaos II-III;
  • Exclude Dimensional III;
• Mind
  • Exclude Metamagic I-III;
  • Exclude Enchantment II-III;
  • Exclude Law III;
• Nature
  • Exclude Ice I-III;
  • Exclude Death II-III;
  • Exclude Entropy III;
• Shadow
  • Exclude Sun I-III;
  • Exclude Fire II-III;
  • No effect;
• Spirit
  • Exclude Body I-III;
  • Exclude Earth II-III;
  • No effect
• Sun
  • Exclude Shadow I-III;
  • Exclude Water II-III;
  • No effect;
• Water
  • Exclude Fire I-III;
  • Exclude Sun II-III;
  • No effect;

I choose to make Entropy and Dimensional lines wrap their opposite away from Force and Creation and Enchantement lines wrap their opposite towards Force, representing the "good" mana working towards equilibrium and the "evil" ones against equilibrium. I don't know what Magister or others would think about that stance, though.

Of course, doing this would only be one part of the job. Ideas to deepen the job:

• Give bonus with each mana promotion (so that Body raises , Air raises Evasion, etc.);
• Strengthen the spells, since they would be harder to get;
• Maybe raise the Archmage cap?
• Give some special ability for mixing two end-branch sphere: two elements (Fire&Air, Earth&Water, for example) and/or two "extremes?" (Enchantment&Entropy, Dimensional&Creation, for example).

The first one being my main concern.

 

[Opera]

Okay, so, I thought of some promobonus already. I'm going to show you those before doing anything else, to see if I'm on the good tracks. Keep in mind that each level of promotion isn't added to the previous but is the sum of the effects.

• Air
  • Movement +1
    Withdrawal +20%
  • Movement +1
    Withdrawal +50%
    First Strike 0-1
  • Movement +2
    Withdrawal +75%
    First Strike 1
    Lightning Damage 1
• Body
  • Heal +10%
    Strength +15%
  • Heal +25%
    Strength +25%
  • Heal +50%
    Strength +50%
• Chaos
  • Betrayal +1%
    First Strike 0-4
    Immune to Capture
  • Betrayal +5%
    First Strikes 2-6
    Immune to Capture
  • Betrayal +10%
    First Strikes 6
    Immune to Capture

I think regular promotions should be removed (like Combat I-V) and replaced by Adept-only proms... Although there isn't that much of regular proms that they can choose anyway.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

As I said, I'm only really confident about the exact opposites on that chart.


I don't think Law and Dimensional should block each other. They actually seem like rather similar spheres, as Law is obsessed with keeping the letter of the law and sometimes forgets the spirit of it. Law's desire for an ordered society means it loves rank, hierarchy, and positional worth more than any sphere but Dimensional. (On the other hand, the fallen Ceridwen does seek to subvert the laws of nature and to tear down he order she and Junil helped cement before her fall.)


I see more similarity than conflict between Metamagic and Dimensional too. Both Ceridwen and Oghma are known for keeping secrets and knowing lots of obscure lore that no one else does. Both are also closely associated with Magic.


I see Spirit as being quite close to Enchantment, and thus opposed to Dimensional. The Sheaim and Elohim do often seem paired against each other.

It has been long established that, despite both being Good, Junil and Sirona have never gotten along. Making Law and Spirit mutually exclusive would make much more sense. I'm unaware of any particular enmity between Spirit and Earth, not that they are particularly close either.

Spoiler :

The aspiring acolyte was taken to the roof of the basilica or temple, alone with the ranking Confessor. It was a ritual, but one the acolyte had never before observed, and so also a test. Below them lies the city, with its teeming inhabitants. Merchants, soldiers, farmers, laborers, nobles, each on his own task.

"Look out, my son," commands the confessor, "and tell me what you see."

"Order," replies the young acolyte calmly.

The confessor smiles. "How do you see order here? Each man follows his own will."

"Order is brought by the law. As we follow the code of Junil, we are able to cooperate with one another, bringing about the ultimate expression of order, civilization. Each man's works contribute to the greater good without him knowing it, so long as those who harbor ill will are constrained by the law."

"What is the greatest temptation of the faithful of Junil?"

"Mercy."

"Why?

"The children of mercy are redemption and injustice. To show mercy to the murderer is to show contempt for the slain, and to grant mercy to the thief is to impoverish his victims. The redemption of a foe is the greatest achievement, but by forgiveness without contrition one is only allowing future suffering. The brother who grants mercy to all sees compassion as his strength; in truth pride is his weakness and the seeds of future misery are sown in the community. Thus mercy must remain the discretion of the gods."

"And so what is your greatest calling?"

"Obedience. Unquestioning Obedience." This exchange complete, the acolyte will be bathed and blessed, a full member of the Order.

From chapter 2 of Reflections on the State Cults, by Elder Methyl of the Luonnatar.

Sirona's selflessness would probably make Mind or Dimensional better choices to be blocked by spirit.


The sun sphere is very open, and unable to keep secrets like (Shadow), Metamagic, Mind, or Dimensional. Conflicting with those may make more sense than with water, although I can see where some disagreements with water would lie. (In addition to the obviously oppose effects of their level 1 spheres, Water is accepting of the faults of long time friends and unlikely to complain about anything, while Sun seeing being brutally honest to those you love in order to help them correct their faults as the right thing to do.)


It think it is pretty clear that the Kilmorphs consider Mammon the worst of the evil gods, or at least the most likely to corrupt her followers. Kilmorph sees wealth as a good thing as it encourages hard work for the betterment of society, but Mammon seeks wealth for its own sake at the expense of society. Mind schemes and plots to reap all the rewards from the labor of others, leaving those others poor and unmotivated to continue making an honest living. (Also, there seem to be close ties between the followers of Mammon and the followers of Tali, as seen by the greed of the Hippus and their selling dwarven slaves to the Balseraphs.) Making Earth and Mind exclusive may make sense.


I don't see that much of a conflict between fire and shadow, although Esus would prefer more subtle means than flame. I think it might be better for Shadow just to block Fire III. Earth and Shadow would seem to conflict more.


It seems odd that there is no conflict between Fire and Ice, seeing how their gods were such old enemies.




edit: the effects of those first level spell spheres seem like too much to me. I wouldn't mind the 3rd level ones being stronger, maybe even making Air III give flying?

 

[Opera]

Before answering, I have to say that all that I done above is the application of xienwolf's theoretical idea. Also, many things seemed a bit weird when I did it, aside from the mind-blowing gymnastic to find which mana opposes which other mana, like the possibility to have Ice and Fire at the same time. But enough, let's answer!

I don't think Law and Dimensional should block each other. They actually seem like rather similar spheres, as Law is obsessed with keeping the letter of the law and sometimes forgets the spirit of it. Law's desire for an ordered society means it loves rank, hierarchy, and positional worth more than any sphere but Dimensional. (On the other hand, the fallen Ceridwen does seek to subvert the laws of nature and to tear down he order she and Junil helped cement before her fall.)

I see more similarity than conflict between Metamagic and Dimensional too. Both Ceridwen and Oghma are known for keeping secrets and knowing lots of obscure lore that no one else does. Both are also closely associated with Magic.

Yeah, I thought that too, that's eye I did it so Dimensional and Metamagic only block the III rank of each other.

I see Spirit as being quite close to Enchantment, and thus opposed to Dimensional. The Sheaim and Elohim do often seem paired against each other.

You're quite right here...

It has been long established that, despite both being Good, Junil and Sirona have never gotten along. Making Law and Spirit mutually exclusive would make much more sense. I'm unaware of any particular enmity between Spirit and Earth, not that they are particularly close either.

The apparent enmity between them is just due to the chart placing them in an opposing branch.

Sirona's selflessness would probably make Mind or Dimensional better choices to be blocked by spirit.

Yeah, because Dimensional is somewhat egoistic, isn't it? And Mind too. Hmm...

The sun sphere is very open, and unable to keep secrets like (Shadow), Metamagic, Mind, or Dimensional. Conflicting with those may make more sense than with water, although I can see where some disagreements with water would lie. (In addition to the obviously oppose effects of their level 1 spheres, Water is accepting of the faults of long time friends and unlikely to complain about anything, while Sun seeing being brutally honest to those you love in order to help them correct their faults as the right thing to do.)

Okay. Water and Sun are opposed in the map, like Spirit and Earth. Well, for what it's worth, at least.

It think it is pretty clear that the Kilmorphs consider Mammon the worst of the evil gods, or at least the most likely to corrupt her followers. Kilmorph sees wealth as a good thing as it encourages hard work for the betterment of society, but Mammon seeks wealth for its own sake at the expense of society. Mind schemes and plots to reap all the rewards from the labor of others, leaving those others poor and unmotivated to continue making an honest living. (Also, there seem to be close ties between the followers of Mammon and the followers of Tali, as seen by the greed of the Hippus and their selling dwarven slaves to the Balseraphs.) Making Earth and Mind exclusive may make sense.

Noted that too.

I don't see that much of a conflict between fire and shadow, although Esus would prefer more subtle means than flame. I think it might be better for Shadow just to block Fire III. Earth and Shadow would seem to conflict more.


It seems odd that there is no conflict between Fire and Ice, seeing how their gods were such old enemies.

Nothing to answer on those... But I'm hesitating now. Either I keep the highly regular system xienwolf came up with, either I let flavour inside the exclusion system. The former would be more appreciable but, in fact, it's a bit a pain in the ass to understand exactly how the system is logical and to apply it to the mana map (no offense, xienwolf ). So I guess that a more intuitive approach is needed. Maybe not replacing one with the other but mixing them. I'll come up with some chart later.

edit: the effects of those first level spell spheres seem like too much to me. I wouldn't mind the 3rd level ones being stronger, maybe even making Air III give flying?

I thought that too but considered that it may be too powerful. But I will give it a try, like WaterWalking for Water III.

So, you think level I should be weaker and level III stronger? A more exponential increase in power, somehow.

 

[xienwolf]

I would say that the best approach would be to take all of the Lore you can find and justifications for how spheres should ally/oppose one another, and THEN build a mana map, which may not have the same overall design as the original (ie - 4 branches of 2 and 4 of 3). The important thing is that having a map of some kind which shows the opposition will make it clear to players at a quick glance what will block (or potentially block) what.


Some spheres make it very justified to block a LOT of other spheres. Let them. The balance would be strong spells or nice promotion bonuses. Other spheres may not have any enmity, so they would have little to no promotion bonus and/or weak spells, but maybe offer some cross-sphere spells as well.



It is a complicated thing to approach, so unfortunately there isn't really a "best path" to it. You can start with the Lore, with a Diagram/chart, with a few "cool spell" ideas, with some "nifty promotion" ideas, or any number of other things, but in the end you have to try and rationalize all of them into the system at the same time.

So basically, it's a Tetris Cube.

 

[Opera]

Yeah, I see.

Here's what I have as a semi-chart for now, with red ties being radical opposites, green ties being Magister/Lore opposites and blue ties being my opposites:

Spoiler :

I think Air should oppose Law as Air is basically freedom, iirc.



However, I'm not sure why Earth and Shadow should oppose each other?



I left out 9 mana: Force, Chaos, Fire, Ice, Nature, Entropy, Creation, Death and Life. Interestingly enough, if we look at the mana chart posted above, we can see that six of those missings are on the same branch (the vertical one).

As I have them now, they only have a radical opposite:
Life <-> Death
Nature <-> Ice
Creation <-> Entropy

I'm wondering if Creation shouldn't also oppose Ice and if Life shouldn't oppose Entropy. We could have a nice chain: Nature <-> Ice <-> Creation <-> Entropy <-> Life <-> Death. Death and Nature don't seem opposites though.



Maybe Death and Spirit should oppose each other? I don't remember why, but I think it makes sense somehow (Sidar, Arawn...).




This is really a tough issue to resolve. One sure thing would be the radical opposites. In fact, the tough thing would be to come up with a neat chart.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yeah, Air is about irresponsibility and fun, so it is nearly as opposed to Law as it is to Earth.


Earth cares about honesty nearly as much as Sun (but more in the sense of honest hard work than honest statements) and Shadow seems allied with Mind and Air. Mind, Air, and Shadow all like stealing rather than earning their way though life.


Death and Nature aren't opposites. The nature sphere tends to value life and death equally. Nature is about gradual change/maturation. Death is about resignation, and life about perseverance, renewal, and rebirth. Creation is about entirely new birth, not the continuation or restoration of old life. Ice is about opposing change and longing to return to an idealized version of the past.


Given that Sucellus was able to convince Arawn to give him the Life sphere so as to help the world recover from the Ice, I guess those could be opposites. Having New Birth oppose stagnation makes sense too. Life could oppose entropy, as healing is the opposite of decay, the sanctify spell removes the damage caused by Agares' religion, and the Gods of Life have shown quite willing to give up their sphere power to others while Agares rebellion started with him being unwilling to give up his. Agares and Sucellus aren't exactly enemies though, as Agares has great respect for Nemed's sacrifice and identifies the god who now holds the sphere with Nemed more than the man who used to be the god.


I see no reason for Death and Spirit to be opposed. They are actually rather close (although I'd consider Water closer to either than they are to each other). Laroth is using Spirit magic to dominate a large part of the land of the Dead, and may even ascend to become the new god of death. Spirit is used as a substitute for death mana from the palace of the death themes civ.



In some ways, Force is really the opposite of everything. Specializing in any other sphere enough to completely master it would pretty much require going of the deep and becoming quite emotionally imbalanced. I'm thinking it could be interesting if Force III blocked access to (at least the 3rd level of) all the spell spheres. Of course, with spells like Peace, Wall of Geiss (basically Sanctuary), and Summon Runewyn (which I just added, based on the Bestiary, which summons a magic immune flying angel that has a huge bonus vs arcane units, can target them in stacks of stronger units, and can remove magic promotions from units it attacks even if it looses) I'm not sure there would be much need for other spheres. The Bestiary does state that Dagda's angels frequently clash with the angels of Ceridwen, if you want to take a less extreme approach and focus Force against Dimesnional.

 

[Cylnar]

Interesting ideas about specializing mages. I agree, magic has become much too generic in FfH and its mods. A couple of thoughts from the peanut gallery:

1) When you speak of certain Tier I magic promotions blocking access to others, have you considered the Amurites and Govannon's Teach Spellcasting ability? You'd probably crash the game if various adepts, wizards, siege mages and archmages (not to mention swordsmen, hunters, workers and the like) suddenly gained mutually exclusive spell promos. At the very least it would probably cause issues when levelling.

One way to circumvent the issue would be to give the Amurites a civ trait or racial promotion: Blood of Kylorin. This would allow Amurite mages to pursue any combination of magic types and would further distinguish them as the ultimate magic users of Erebus.

Another way would be simply to allow all tier I spells to be known by any spellcasting unit without limitation, and not to start spell promos from blocking one another until tier II. Or combine both methods.

2) As to opposing spheres, I am not a FfH lore maven so I'm just going on what makes sense to me as far as magic use goes. However, basing opposition based on which gods control which spheres and how they get along seems to me more suited to divine spell casters than to mages.

a) Death and Nature could be considered opposites. Why? The Death sphere is more about undeath, and unnatural death, than the natural death which could be considered an aspect of nature. Since the Death sphere opposes natural death, raising undead creatures and even allowing the caster to cheat nature by becoming a lich, it exists in explicit opposition to Nature.​

b) Entropy, as the force of ultimate decay and destruction, exists in explicit contradiction to both Life and Creation. However as it now exists there is no Creation sphere in Orbis, nor Force which was also mentioned. Are there plans to bring them over from FF at a future date?​

c) Law and Chaos exist in direct contradiction, and are explicitly used so in the D&D system which FfH has some of its roots in.​

3) A completely different approach to diversifying mages: bring back summoners! I liked how when upgrading adepts in earlier versions of FfH you could choose to follow either the path of the mage or that of the summoner, with different spell lists for each path. I was rather annoyed when Kael decided to combine the two into one generic unit and dump several spells, though I understand his reasoning to keep the main mod lean and mean. But that's what modmods are for, after all!

4) Another way to diversify mages: By the technology required to build the appropriate mana nodes. So you would basically have Alterers, Diviners, Elementalists and Necromancers (Metamagic would be available to all and Ice would be available to all Illian casters only). You could either a) create four types of adepts; b) give them an appropriate promo when they learn their first spell (blocking off access to spheres from other techs and making certain other promos available) or c) just make them choose their path when upgrading to tier II units (either letting them take tier I in all spheres or somehow returning their picks to them to be rechosen).

Enough from me for now. Carry on, modders!

 

[xienwolf]

Actually with promotions how I have written them it is possible to make it IMPOSSIBLE to have 2 promotions at the same time which you decide will be mutually exclusive. So if one REALLY wanted to they could ensure that you never have Strong + Weak or Light + Heavy. So that part at least isn't a concern.

But Amurite being naturally immune to the cross-sphere limitations could be an interesting approach to making them seem the true masters of the arcane.

 

[Opera]

@Cylnar: See, I didn't know this about Summoners. Never saw them. I guess I came to FFH too late! How were they handled? Were they an alternative to Mage upgrade from Adepts? So they did have the same rank I spells but different rank II-III?

Also, it may be a good idea to divide the spells by school, Alteration, Divination, etc. Some restrictions still should apply though, like Sun and Shadow being mutually exclusive.

I like the Amurites idea too. Long time since I wanted to give them a powerful trait. I don't know how I will make it work, though.

As for Force and Creation, yes, I plan to add them in.

Thanks for the great input, Cylnar

@Magister: Thanks for the input, as usual. What do you think about what Cylnar said on Death and Nature?

Also, would you mind sharing your Creation spells? I like the Force ones you mention too. I'm not sure yet but would you mind if I used them?

I think a way to give arcane units ranged attack would be neat. Maybe with Force II (which would still give a spell) or with another mana...