Archbob
Ancient CFC Guardian
I simply don't believe in this. Almost every time any ME country has a democratic vote, the radicals come out on top. That tells me most of the population still want to live in the 14th century.
Benjamin Netanyahu wants War and Mitt Romney
- Thread starter holy king
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I simply don't believe in this. Almost every time any ME country has a democratic vote, the radicals come out on top. That tells me most of the population still want to live in the 14th century.
It was merely one upping Netanyahu's appetite for violence, not to be taken as a serious proposition, but as a demonstration of the silliness of Natanyahu's position. Perhaps you should read my posts from a stepladder.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Where has that recently occurred? The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is far from being the al-Qaeda.
The real fundamentalist radicals in the region continue to be supported and defended by the US government: Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, and the UAE for example. At least now thousands of Egyptians are no longer being tortured and murdered by their own government, while the US government under GWB provided them with even more victims instead of doing anything about it.
del62
Deity
Why can you see down into a troll's cave better from a stepladder?
It might get you high enough to see out of one.
del62
Deity
Do you speak from your personnel experiences, or in hope when you finally acquire a stepladder?
Keebler doesn't supply stepladders.
del62
Deity
Oh, I'm sorry, you are destined to be stuck in that cave for eternity
Which makes me better off than Israel.
Archbob
Ancient CFC Guardian
Perhaps no Al-Qaeda, but they do advocate Ultra Orthodox Sharia law which most Egyptians seem to favor. You can't tell me thats progress.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
If most people in a particular country feel a certain way, what do you think establishing a democracy is going to mean? Slavery would have been abolished far sooner in the US if it had not been for the revolution.
Do you think still living in a repressive dictatorship was more favorable to the majority of the people?
Do you think still living in a repressive dictatorship was more favorable to the majority of the people?
Archbob
Ancient CFC Guardian
Thats what I was getting at. You give these people a vote and they are going to vote for an ancient and repressive government anyways. Its totally incompatible with the rest of the world. If they want it, let them have it and stop trying to bring them into the 21st century and preach this "human rights" nonsense to them because they don't want it.
The Muslim world also doesn't want peace with Israel and we can stop pretending one side is the bad guy.
...maybe. If the American colonies remained in the British system, presumably with representation of some sort (otherwise it's hard to see how they would still be in), then the moral-religious effort to end the slave trade would have met with even greater Parliamentary opposition than it did historically, and may very well have not been passed or have been modified to not apply to America.
del62
Deity
I think you have a point as the 1807 bill while been driven by the abolitionist's appealed to those who (not really interested in abolition) wanted to strengthen British Shipping.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
At least we agree on that. But I still think their current "repressive" government is far superior to the one it replaced. Baby steps.
When was the last time "the Muslim world" attacked Israel?
And hardly anybody in the modern world is "pretending one side is the bad guy" with the exception of some who rarely criticize the Israeli and US governments no matter what they do, while incessantly blaming Muslims.
Archbob
Ancient CFC Guardian
Does shooting rockets into their territory count? The Arab countries don't really have the military power to take on Israel in open war but they've done plenty of Guerilla tactics. Yes, its been offshoot groups like Hamas and others, but I'm not going to pretend that they aren't supported in secret by official governments. At the very least, the muslim governments don't seem to be interested in telling them not to do what they do.
And there are plenty of people on this forum who are quick to point fingers at Israel first when its obvious both sides are at fault.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
That is hardly "the Muslim world". There have been 20 or so deaths in 13 years. When is that excuse for apartheid and hate mongering going to get old?
And there are very few people in this forum who only blame Israel, if anybody.
And there are very few people in this forum who only blame Israel, if anybody.
Yes.
Of course, there are a host of other alterations that come into play if the American rebellion is said to have either failed or been co-opted. For instance, the French government may have managed to avoid revolution in the aftermath of the war; the events of 1789-93, to say nothing of those following them, were highly contingent on circumstance, and it's worth noting that plenty of other states that faced equal or greater revolutionary problems than did the French in that era were able to successfully face them down (notably Austria, but many of the Imperial states, Prussia, Russia, and Sweden qualify to various extents). The war with Napoleon had a significant impact on the political situation in 1807, and if that is gone or changed beyond recognition, it's impossible to say how the abolitionist movement would be able to respond.
Anyway. I don't think that the circumstances of the British abolition of slavery and the American relationship to slavery really say anything about the will of the general population in a nondemocratic state. All of these events occurred before the real birth of European and American mass politics in the later part of the nineteenth century. The revitalization and transformation of conservatism in several countries as an electoral force due to mass politics - Germany and the UK being the most obvious references - is probably more instructive. Most Iranians became well educated and politically conscious within the last two or three generations; can one really say that mass politics existed there before the fall of the Shah? And if so, is something at least vaguely similar to what happened in many parts of Europe in the late nineteenth century (and, it's worth noting, extremely different in many contextual ways, so this comparison might be garbage, too) also occurring in Iran?
I agree . . . both sides are the bad guys.
Ajidica
High Quality Person
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Yes, the USSR was heavily involved with the Baathists in Egypt, Syria, and Iraq during the sixties. It was during this time the Baathists were still in favor of Arab Nationalism/Socialism and not ruling as sordid little dictators. It was also during this time the Soviets were into the whole idea of 'exporting revolutions'. By the 80's they had pretty much abandoned that whole line of thought and were far more focused in preserving their existing sphere of influence. Did the Soviet Union have contacts and interesting connections with Saddam during the Iran-Iraq War? Of course, but they weren't selling Saddam poison gas, sending their navy into the Gulf in support of Saddam, shelling Iranian oil stations, blowing up Iranian passenger aircraft, and turning a blind eye to Saddam's brutal regime. America, along with Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf princes organized a massive effort to support Saddam and oppose Iran.
Not necesarily. Remember, during Mubarak's rule the only opposition group that had any real sway was the Muslim Brotherhood. Add into that their extensive charity network and it isn't hard to imagine whiy the Muslim Brotherhood would get voted in over 'secular' candidates who had ties to the Mubarak regime. Most Egyptians, even those who do not necesarily agree with the Muslim Brotherhoods policies, would rather have people who are not former Mubarak cronies then elect in another Mubarak crony.
If you had just overthrown a dictator, who would you vote for: a crony of the former regime or someone who was adamently opposed to the old regime even if you don't agree with all of their policies?
Plus there is the little thing about how if Morsi gets a bit too nutty the military will oust him in a heartbeat.
