Benjamin Netanyahu wants War and Mitt Romney

Soundl like Jilly is a bit of a genocide advocator
Just a combination of Truman (use your best weapon) and W (make a pre-emptive strike). Last time I checked, Israel had a diverse population, so I can't see the genocide claim - the Bible advocates worse against Israel from a pure genocide perspective.

Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

23:11 And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms.

23:12 She doted upon the Assyrians her neighbours, captains and rulers clothed most gorgeously, horsemen riding upon horses, all of them desirable young men.

23:13 Then I saw that she was defiled, that they took both one way,

23:14 And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion,

23:15 Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity:

23:16 And as soon as she saw them with her eyes, she doted upon them, and sent messengers unto them into Chaldea.

23:17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.

23:18 So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.

23:19 Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.

23:20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

23:21 Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.

23:22 Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;

23:23 The Babylonians, and all the Chaldeans, Pekod, and Shoa, and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them: all of them desirable young men, captains and rulers, great lords and renowned, all of them riding upon horses.

23:24 And they shall come against thee with chariots, wagons, and wheels, and with an assembly of people, which shall set against thee buckler and shield and helmet round about: and I will set judgment before them, and they shall judge thee according to their judgments.

23:25 And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.

23:26 They shall also strip thee out of thy clothes, and take away thy fair jewels.

23:27 Thus will I make thy lewdness to cease from thee, and thy whoredom brought from the land of Egypt: so that thou shalt not lift up thine eyes unto them, nor remember Egypt any more.

23:28 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hand of them whom thou hatest, into the hand of them from whom thy mind is alienated:

23:29 And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.

23:30 I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.

23:31 Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thine hand.

23:32 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou shalt drink of thy sister's cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.

23:33 Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.

23:34 Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

23:35 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast forgotten me, and cast me behind thy back, therefore bear thou also thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.

23:36 The LORD said moreover unto me; Son of man, wilt thou judge Aholah and Aholibah? yea, declare unto them their abominations;

23:37 That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.

23:38 Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.

23:39 For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into my sanctuary to profane it; and, lo, thus have they done in the midst of mine house.

23:40 And furthermore, that ye have sent for men to come from far, unto whom a messenger was sent; and, lo, they came: for whom thou didst wash thyself, paintedst thy eyes, and deckedst thyself with ornaments,

23:41 And satest upon a stately bed, and a table prepared before it, whereupon thou hast set mine incense and mine oil.

23:42 And a voice of a multitude being at ease was with her: and with the men of the common sort were brought Sabeans from the wilderness, which put bracelets upon their hands, and beautiful crowns upon their heads.

23:43 Then said I unto her that was old in adulteries, Will they now commit whoredoms with her, and she with them?

23:44 Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women.

23:45 And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.

23:46 For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled.

23:47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.

23:48 Thus will I cause lewdness to cease out of the land, that all women may be taught not to do after your lewdness.

23:49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
 
Iran was persecuting an aggressive war for two reasons:
1) Iraq still held Iranian territory and had no intrest in making peace.
2) Iraq wasn't abiding by the UN ceasefire lines.
As a result, Iran felt it had to prosecute the war until their war aims were accomplished, plus they were sort of seeking revenge for Saddam's earlier atrocities whether the whole 'War of the Cities', the Tanker War, or gas attacks. While the 'human wave' tactics the Iranians used were bloody, they were the only real option open to them because of the arms embargo.
Plus, continuing the war was rather popular in Revolutionary Iran. Robert Fisk (British journalist) visited the country many times and support for the war was pretty universal among all classes. They were, after all, fighting against the 'Imposed War' which was started by a pro-West Arab secular dictator.
Lastly, the Revolutionary Iranian government wasn't exactly strong enough to suppress internal dissent and fight the war at the same time.

Yeah, these are fair points. The only issue I have is with your last point which seems a bit off to me; surely the government made time to deal with dissenters where and when they arose.
 
Yeah, these are fair points. The only issue I have is with your last point which seems a bit off to me; surely the government made time to deal with dissenters where and when they arose.
During the early part of the Revolution, yes. Revolutionary Iran did a very good job persecuting the Moscow-backed Tudeh party into oblivion, persecuting various revolutionary groups, former military officers, and Saddam-backed militants.
During the later part of the war pretty much all dissenters had been persecuted or were now supporting the war.
As far as persecution during the first part of the revolution, it was a very patchwork affair that depended greatly on which Mullah or Ayatollah was dominant in a given area. Some, like Khalkali were rather violent while others (Khatami, IIRC) were on the whole pretty decent compared to the Shah and the SAVAK.
 
Just a combination of Truman (use your best weapon) and W (make a pre-emptive strike). Last time I checked, Israel had a diverse population, so I can't see the genocide claim - the Bible advocates worse against Israel from a pure genocide perspective.

Jilly, keep justyfying your genocide.
 
Saddam was an opportunist. He played both ends against the middle and did his best to use the superpowers for his own ends. With few exceptions, this was a blueprint followed by pretty much every Middle Eastern state after the Eisenhower Doctrine.

Saddam was only unusual in that he reaped both the biggest benefits and also the worst consequences from that policy.
 
I am sure that Saddam was more pro-Soviet than pro-Western, most of his weapons came from the Soviets.

"Everybody" was happy to see Saddam attack Iran, and the west was happy to help - those WMD

his mistake was thinking he'd get Kuwait as a bone for his efforts

our mistake was hanging around to enforce sanctions

caring was actually our first mistake, the pressure would have eventually driven him out
 
The reason he attacked Kuwait was (from what I remember) that he owed them a lot of money (or it could have been loan him more money, cant remember the details), he wanted them to cancel his debts to them and they (the Kuwaiti's) refused.

The majority of his wepons were from Russia (with some French), which caused them (the Russians) to be so upset when they saw how their weapons poorly performed against western weapons.
 
Of course, Iraq only got export versions of Russian hardware, had it operated by barely competent crews, and used it in a completely wrong manner. This is not to say that Russian hardware was equal/superior to the Western hardware, only that to make comparisons based on Arab performance in wars with Western states (Israel included) is not fair.
 
I grow tired of this cowardice, desperate attempts to once again have the US cripple its prestige and international respect for Israel's benefit. I really hope Obama wins and is even icier to Israel after the blatant attempts to manipulate the election in Romney's favor. Israel wouldnt be so tough if we stopped auto-vetoing any UN security council thing they disliked.
 
I am sure that Saddam was more pro-Soviet than pro-Western, most of his weapons came from the Soviets.

The reason he attacked Kuwait was (from what I remember) that he owed them a lot of money (or it could have been loan him more money, cant remember the details), he wanted them to cancel his debts to them and they (the Kuwaiti's) refused.
It was nothing of the sort. Iraq piled up massive debts during their war with Iran. After the war, Kuwait lowered oil prices by flooding the market that deliberately destabilized the Iraqi economy while even slant-drilling their oil. Hussein even thought he had the permission of the US to invade Kuwait.


Link to video.

Saddam Hussein was a US stooge, not a Soviet one. To try to portray him that way is disingenuous at best.

I grow tired of this cowardice, desperate attempts to once again have the US cripple its prestige and international respect for Israel's benefit. I really hope Obama wins and is even icier to Israel after the blatant attempts to manipulate the election in Romney's favor. Israel wouldnt be so tough if we stopped auto-vetoing any UN security council thing they disliked.
We just need to find a president brave enough to finally stand up to them.
 
Strange because the Soviets were by far his biggest source of weapons.
While the puchase of weapons can be a political statement, Saddam's increasingly close ties with the US government over the course of the Iran-Iraq War is a pretty good indicator of whether Saddam was pro-West or pro-Soviet.
Plus, what incentive did Saddam have to buy weapons from the West? The Iraqi army was almost exclusively equipped with Soviet vehicles and aircraft due to the close relation between the Soviets and the Middle East back during the height of Arab Nationalism.

Never mind that Revolutionary Iran used primarily Western aircraft and vehicles and went to great trouble to aquire more of them over the course of the war.
 
Strange because the Soviets were by far his biggest source of weapons.
Since Iran used US-made weapons to such a great extent, does that mean they were still a US stooge?

Saddam Hussein overthrew the Soviet-backed government with the direct aid of the CIA, then he attacked Iran with the explicit aid of the US and Europe. He was our stooge, not theirs.
 
We just need to find a president brave enough to finally stand up to them.

Agreed. At this point, we aren't helping them anymore than a parent who buys a lolipop for a tantrum throwing child. Our constant vetoes and refusal to stick up for the rights of Palestinians only embolden the Israelis to keep acting as they have, thus guaranteeing no peaceful resolution.

In light of Bibi's blatant recent manipulation of our politics, I wonder if Obama will start to play hardball with him after the election.
 
I seriously doubt that:

tjurtsraoukdde1cstbusw.gif


OTOH most Israelis are completely opposed to unilateral intervention, and most oppose it even if the US joins in:

Just 19% of Israelis support a military strike without U.S. support, according to a poll conducted by the Washington-based Brookings Saban Center in February.

Forty-two percent favor an attack if the United States is on board.

The only real question is why they continue to elect such reactionary warmongers in the first place.
 
I doubt Obama will change tune, however reelection frees up the President in a lot of ways. Maybe he'll want to actually earn that Nobel Peace Prize.

I don't know enough about Israeli politics to comment on the motivation of voters. I did hear, however, that the construction of the security fence cit down terror attacks to the point that most Israelis lost interest in a permanent peace or a 2 state solution. They feel they have enough security without it. No idea if this is true though.
 
Saddam Hussein overthrew the Soviet-backed government with the direct aid of the CIA, then he attacked Iran with the explicit aid of the US and Europe. He was our stooge, not theirs.

Strange because an Iraqi general (Ali Ibrahim al-Tikriti), who defected in 1991 claim that the Soviets asisted the Baathists in gaining power in the 1960s

There are also other claims about connections between the KGB / FSB and Saddam's regime

For thirty years, from 1973-2003, Russian agents (from the KGB, then the FSB) worked with the Iraqi government on security matters. Saddam Hussein originally brought the KGB in to help him deal with enemies in Iraq. The KGB gets some of the credit for Saddam surviving dozens of coup and assassination attempts. In return, Saddam shared information he had on terrorist groups.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htintel/articles/20061010.aspx

I am not saying there was no help for Saddam from the US (along with others including China, Saudi Arabia, Germany, France and the UK), but his biggest provider was the Soviets/Russia
 
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