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Mudrac
Orc Warchief
It is pretty good now because it balances the consulates. Giving you the maximum of 25 influence. Those 5 points mean a lot. Because being Neutral and Friendly is a very big different thing.
McSaucy4418
Chieftain
Short of a total redefine of the pledge system I second this. I think reducing the buff to consulates is a better play than minimizing the pledge.
Yzman
Deity
Trade route thing is supposed to be freedom's thing.
McSaucy4418
Chieftain
sendos
Immortal
Great changes so far. However, the main changes needed are in liberty and honor. I think a little more could be done with these policies.
Also, diplomatic and science victories are no longer easy victories anymore! Yay! I can't wait to experience longer games on standard speed, rather than have them end as early as turn 330.
Also, diplomatic and science victories are no longer easy victories anymore! Yay! I can't wait to experience longer games on standard speed, rather than have them end as early as turn 330.
I believe the AI does take pledges to protect into account when deciding whether to demand tribute or declare war on a city-state.
+1.
Agreed. The Pledge system could use a bit of an overhaul. When Gods & Kings came out, I remember how excited I was the first time an AI bullied a CS I had pledged to protect, and I had to choose who to side with. I quickly realized that siding with the CS was always the right answer because the diplo hit against the AI seemed so trivial in comparison to -20 influence. (It still sucks that I can't look up the city-state in question and see if I care or not, though!)
Please change to numbers to these Firaxxs! Edit: Also nerf Rationalism so it isn't such a no brainer!
Strategist83
King
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2005
- Messages
- 625
Very glad to see a developer here! Finally some interaction with the community!
You're finally making some adjustments to the warmonger calculations, excellent. You're still not creating a proper system, though. What needs to happen is a) warmongering penalty gets toned down (which you seem to be doing) but also b) diplomatic relations should deteriorate towards a player who is pulling ahead of the flock. Ultimately, the concern of nations throughout history (and, coincidentally, in the name of game balance, as well!) isn't and wasn't 'hating' whoever warmongered the most, but hating who was the most powerful and therefore a threat to themselves. During medieval times, for instance, it doesn't matter to Washington that Montezuma is a bloodthirsty psychopath if Monty is also powerless and backwards. Washington is concerned about threats to his own goals and security, and thus not Monty in this case. Only if Montezuma's conquests are succesful and he rises to power should Washington be concerned and gain high 'warmonger hate'/rivalry. Your focusing diplomacy exclusively on 'warmonger hate' with Civ 5 is a complete misunderstanding that neither makes sense from a gameplay nor a realism perspective and only serves to create artificial, hampered gameplay. You need to move still further away from this model with this Fall Patch than this changelog suggests is the plan. It's been baby steps so far in the right direction; now take a leap with this patch and finally eliminate one of V's core issues.
I love the integration of the culture system into conquests & espionage allowing for painless takeover 'liberations' of a culturally inferior civ. Well done! Overall, this patch looks mighty impressive!
You're finally making some adjustments to the warmonger calculations, excellent. You're still not creating a proper system, though. What needs to happen is a) warmongering penalty gets toned down (which you seem to be doing) but also b) diplomatic relations should deteriorate towards a player who is pulling ahead of the flock. Ultimately, the concern of nations throughout history (and, coincidentally, in the name of game balance, as well!) isn't and wasn't 'hating' whoever warmongered the most, but hating who was the most powerful and therefore a threat to themselves. During medieval times, for instance, it doesn't matter to Washington that Montezuma is a bloodthirsty psychopath if Monty is also powerless and backwards. Washington is concerned about threats to his own goals and security, and thus not Monty in this case. Only if Montezuma's conquests are succesful and he rises to power should Washington be concerned and gain high 'warmonger hate'/rivalry. Your focusing diplomacy exclusively on 'warmonger hate' with Civ 5 is a complete misunderstanding that neither makes sense from a gameplay nor a realism perspective and only serves to create artificial, hampered gameplay. You need to move still further away from this model with this Fall Patch than this changelog suggests is the plan. It's been baby steps so far in the right direction; now take a leap with this patch and finally eliminate one of V's core issues.
I love the integration of the culture system into conquests & espionage allowing for painless takeover 'liberations' of a culturally inferior civ. Well done! Overall, this patch looks mighty impressive!
Great work. Pledge gives 5-8 turns of extra influence after you've become Friends or Allies, which is nice small reward for the small risk involved. It is great to see the free support for this game at this point.
Dennis, any new civ DLC coming? I don't know the cost/benefit analysis for it, but I would buy it.
Dennis, any new civ DLC coming? I don't know the cost/benefit analysis for it, but I would buy it.
Lord Yanaek
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2003
- Messages
- 1,664
I don't really think so. What pledge does for tribute is increase the CS "resilience", so yes, in a sense, it will make AIs less likely to demend successfuly, however, on higher difficulties (especially immortal / deity), they will all ask for tribute at some point, even the most peaceful civs will
It's true the 5 additional turns are not wortheless, but again, on higher difficulties, doing CS quest is not easy. Killing a barb camp might be possible if it's very close to you (the main reason why i rarely raze nearby camps), but then, even camps 4 tiles away from your cap can be razed by AIs even before a CS asks for it, all the tech/faith/culture quests are pointless early with AIs big boosts. This leaves NW quests (rather unpredictable) and finding other civs quests.
Anyway, as i see it now, it might be worth pledging in the early game, but it will become pointless pretty soon as you advance to later eras. Well, it's better than the free friendship that made consulates a no-brainer for every game. At least now, opening commerce or aestethics (or even honor/piety as a second tree) will be a valid option. Patronage will still probably be valid, but going further than just consulates.
I just hope it's only a quick fix, and they will work on a better pledge system, or maybe even re-think the whole CS relations system, for a future big patch.
Hakan-i Cihan
Emperor
I think the combination of 2 or 3 of them is too strong. Therefore not pledge but the combination should be handled. My proposition:
Pledge: 10 (keep it this way, otherwise too weak)
Papal primacy: 10+5 (the plus 5 applies only if Pledge or Consulates isn't "used")
Consulates: 15+5 (the plus 5 applies only if Pledge or Papal primacy isn't "used")
And for Pledge it is rather weird that you can pledge protect for a CS on the other side of the world or that you wouldn't have to make any effort for it besides the "pledge".
Pledge: 10 (keep it this way, otherwise too weak)
Papal primacy: 10+5 (the plus 5 applies only if Pledge or Consulates isn't "used")
Consulates: 15+5 (the plus 5 applies only if Pledge or Papal primacy isn't "used")
And for Pledge it is rather weird that you can pledge protect for a CS on the other side of the world or that you wouldn't have to make any effort for it besides the "pledge".
kaspergm
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2012
- Messages
- 5,832
That is true. I will still say, though, that the balance between Pledge (+5, comes with a downside) vs. Consulates (+20, comes with no downside but an opportunity cost) still seems off to me, and I would support the +10 vs. +15 listed above, but I guess that's nitpicking.
However, upping PP to +20 would have the point of making this belief actually worth it, because that would mean that with this belief (and only this belief) you could get the perma-frienship as long as you share religion, which I think is a good way to make this belief worthwhile, because the opportunity cost of picking this over another belief is much greater than the opportunity cost of picking Consulates (given you will get more policies later).
Some good balance changes here so thanks for this Firaxis - some further balance tweaks I would suggest are:
2 nerfs to tradition 1) free monuments and aqueducts for just the first 3 cities and 2) halve the bonus to city attacks from oligarchy
2 buffs to honor 1) military caste grants +2 happy instead of +1 since you have to station a unit and 2) professional army removes maintenance from barracks, armories, and military academies
1 buff to piety 1) religious tolerance allows use of follower beliefs as well as pantheon beliefs from a minority religion. Also have another look at the reformation beliefs to make sure they're all good - glory to god, sacred sites, and religious fervor are all fine but the others need to be at a similar power level IMO
2 nerfs to tradition 1) free monuments and aqueducts for just the first 3 cities and 2) halve the bonus to city attacks from oligarchy
2 buffs to honor 1) military caste grants +2 happy instead of +1 since you have to station a unit and 2) professional army removes maintenance from barracks, armories, and military academies
1 buff to piety 1) religious tolerance allows use of follower beliefs as well as pantheon beliefs from a minority religion. Also have another look at the reformation beliefs to make sure they're all good - glory to god, sacred sites, and religious fervor are all fine but the others need to be at a similar power level IMO
FeiLing
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2012
- Messages
- 2,087
I wonder how Deity is supposed to be won if you suddenly aren't perma befriended with all CS any more. It's definitely the end of any not total war play on that difficulty.
Some thinking about pledging:
#1 - People suggesting it requiring to denounce other civs: very bad idea. Denouncing is serious business and you CAN never do it unless you want to declare war on the whole world right now! So that is not an option.
#2 - Influence below 30 could be made valuable if the amount of influence above zero increased the likeliness (and/or influence amount rewarded) of quests (on top of the current chances). For e.g.:
1-14 influence: +10% chance per turn for a quest to occur (2 quests active at max).
15-29 influence: +20% chance per turn for a quest to occur (3 quests active at max).
This is also nice because it makes killing a barb nearby do give some actual benefit even if it doesn't get you into friend/ally range (pledge + barb kill would temporarily put you into tier2 bonus chance).
#3 - If you actually denounce or dow a civ your protected CS is at war with you should get a major influence boost with that CS and a minor boost with all other CS you pledged to protect.
Some other stuff that has to be dealt with soonish:
-Tradition is op (super early culture, growth, more tiles, happiness, gold) A free settler+worker, a GA plus a not so free great person can not compete to that ever; Honor can't anyway and Piety is pointless on higher difficulties unless maybe you got Sinai/Uluru within capital range).
-Rationalism is still op and probably always will be, simply because the advantages that more tech give is much greater than what other SPs do. How do you win Culturally when all Wonders and Dig Sites are gone long before you get the tech for them? Right, through conquest. How do you win conquest? By having more advanced units or Frigattes.
-Great Prophet randomness burning Faith. Religion is a gamble already, but when your GP appears 10-20 turns later than expected and also nullifying all faith accumulated in that time is just unnecessary.
-City-State bonuses are too good. Thinking Maritime should go down to 1.5 food for the capital as friend (also nerfing Tradition slightly) and Culture down to 3/6/10/20 from 3/6/12/26.
-Icon for Full Moon Striker (Comanche +1 movement) is a bullet??
Also repeating my Samurai/Japan suggestion here while we're at it:
-Japan can always (with Steel tech) buy Samurais with Faith.
-Expending a fishing boat gives Japan xx faith (thinking something between 30 and 50 might be balanced).
-Ocean start bias.
-Zero no longer requires Oil.
-+1 culture from fishing boats.
-+2 culture from atolls. (or maybe make it +1 from atolls too for the sake of a more decisive description).
Some thinking about pledging:
#1 - People suggesting it requiring to denounce other civs: very bad idea. Denouncing is serious business and you CAN never do it unless you want to declare war on the whole world right now! So that is not an option.
#2 - Influence below 30 could be made valuable if the amount of influence above zero increased the likeliness (and/or influence amount rewarded) of quests (on top of the current chances). For e.g.:
1-14 influence: +10% chance per turn for a quest to occur (2 quests active at max).
15-29 influence: +20% chance per turn for a quest to occur (3 quests active at max).
This is also nice because it makes killing a barb nearby do give some actual benefit even if it doesn't get you into friend/ally range (pledge + barb kill would temporarily put you into tier2 bonus chance).
#3 - If you actually denounce or dow a civ your protected CS is at war with you should get a major influence boost with that CS and a minor boost with all other CS you pledged to protect.
Some other stuff that has to be dealt with soonish:
-Tradition is op (super early culture, growth, more tiles, happiness, gold) A free settler+worker, a GA plus a not so free great person can not compete to that ever; Honor can't anyway and Piety is pointless on higher difficulties unless maybe you got Sinai/Uluru within capital range).
-Rationalism is still op and probably always will be, simply because the advantages that more tech give is much greater than what other SPs do. How do you win Culturally when all Wonders and Dig Sites are gone long before you get the tech for them? Right, through conquest. How do you win conquest? By having more advanced units or Frigattes.
-Great Prophet randomness burning Faith. Religion is a gamble already, but when your GP appears 10-20 turns later than expected and also nullifying all faith accumulated in that time is just unnecessary.
-City-State bonuses are too good. Thinking Maritime should go down to 1.5 food for the capital as friend (also nerfing Tradition slightly) and Culture down to 3/6/10/20 from 3/6/12/26.
-Icon for Full Moon Striker (Comanche +1 movement) is a bullet??
Also repeating my Samurai/Japan suggestion here while we're at it:
-Japan can always (with Steel tech) buy Samurais with Faith.
-Expending a fishing boat gives Japan xx faith (thinking something between 30 and 50 might be balanced).
-Ocean start bias.
-Zero no longer requires Oil.
-+1 culture from fishing boats.
DemonMaster
A.K.A. Fenhorn
In what way. I just finished a game and the replay worked like it usually does or did I miss something.
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