Betting and Speculation - The "Entirely Separate Hypercube" Civ!

[InsanelyApple]

I think it was more like this:
Person 1: So all these people on CFC keep asking to be able to play as a city-state. Weird, huh?
Person 2: What's the difference between that and playing OCC?
Person 1: Not much of one. So should we try it? And can we make it fun?
Person 2: Let them be able to puppet cities at least.
Person 1: Good idea, but it still seems too much like OCC, since they will only control one city, so let them be able to rush-buy stuff in puppets. It'll feel really unique!
Person 2: Ok, they'll need some kind of economic bonus then.
Person 1: Excellent! So who should we pick for a civ for this?
Person 2: Venice! Not many people know about their awesome empire and impact on history.
Person 1: People do want an Italian civ, Venice will work both as a fan favorite and as a dark horse. Perfect!

That sent a shiver down my spine. Seems accurate enough.

 

[InsanelyApple]

I remain unconvinced.

I first saw this piece of news on Reddit, and without any support, I can't help but be skeptical. I've read the first 5 pages of this forum since the announcement and I couldn't find any supporting evidence. If I missed something, feel free to let me know.

I did a quick look into Themaelstorms's history. I found nothing to support that they work for some sort of press office (or, that's what I think he's supposed to be from? I never did see the original post). Their history is pretty weak and lacks any involvement. Of course, this doesn't mean anything and indicates nothing other than they like to lurk. Their unfulfilled promise of screenshots isn't helping their case at all, though.

There was a comment from the Reddit post that pointed out that the claims were unsubstantiated, and the OP of that post said there were articles to confirm some of the information but didn't provide links. I probed and asked for the articles, also providing a little commentary of what I thought. He provided one link to a Polish forum which I can't read. If someone can find out what he's talking about, please help me out. Google Translate brought in nothing of substance. The other article he mentioned was "lost" (I think he was referring to the post made here on CFC), but then he got all defensive, telling me that he didn't care what I thought.

A lot of people are pointing out how the mods here took the post down quickly as evidence that there was a leak. I say that it's evidence that there wasn't a leak. The fact that they "put it back up" (which I still can't find the OP) might suggest that they thought it was a leak then found out it was just garbage (I don't know how well the mods here are in contact with the dev team, but if they are, then there might've been a few words exchanged).

All in all, this seems rather shady to me. Of course, I only found out about it a couple of hours after everyone else, and CFC seems to move quickly to affirm or deny any claims. I may have missed something. If not, then I remain skeptical.

I'm not convinced either. I'd prefer some other tribe to the Shoshone. Heck, I'd even prefer the Sioux! And I hate the idea of the Sioux being in the game. They are only famous for some girl who was sold to some French guy and that girl helped two lost white men. (Bring on the hate for that last sentence. I probably deserve it.)

 

[Yzman]

... uh? I'm pretty sure that any unit under your control is Venetian, even if it was gifted by another.
In that case, you'll always have a Venetian Merchant of Venice.

Now if only we had a Most Serene Galeass, then Venice would be perfect!


That reminds me - being a UGP, it means other civilizations can get Merchants of Venice from city-states! That's kinda cool!

Thats what we were getting at. Other civs can get gifted khans, so would other civs be able to be gifted a venice merchant with all of its perks? Seems very powerful...

 

[Crodface]

Thats what we were getting at. Other civs can get gifted khans, so would other civs be able to be gifted a venice merchant with all of its perks? Seems very powerful...

Yea if you can get gifted a Venetian Merchant with all of its abilities then it is essentially like getting gifted Austria's UA. Very powerful indeed.

 

[VirtuallyJesse]

Really hope this stuff is true.. because they both sound really exciting to play! Hope I'm not hyping myself up for disappointment~

 

[Worlds_Crossing]

Thats what we were getting at. Other civs can get gifted khans, so would other civs be able to be gifted a venice merchant with all of its perks? Seems very powerful...

Another question is if the Merchant of Venice can be gifted, what are its limits with respect to other civs? Remember, the MoV is balanced, as far as we know, because Venice cannot control or annex any new cities. It must puppet any new cities it obtains. Imagine using the MoV as any other civ. The most interesting question becomes, can you annex a city that you bought with the MoV? If so, it would be hilariously broken. A second, in line with the first question, is if it plays anything like the Austrian ability (I haven't checked if they changed it as I don't play Austria all that often but last I checked it acted this way), you could get it completely free without the need for a Courthouse. As if you settled it yourself. Can you imagine that? A completely free new city, without any effort at all, neither conquest nor gold. All you had to do was wait for the Educated Elite to kick in.

I don't think the devs would let it go that far, but still an interesting question all in all.

 

[Worlds_Crossing]

Yea if you can get gifted a Venetian Merchant with all of its abilities then it is essentially like getting gifted Austria's UA. Very powerful indeed.

It would be downright hilarious if the MoV functioned exactly the same as Austria's UA. You don't just get a new city. You basically settled a city, several buildings, a handful of pop and bunch of units. For free.

At least Diplomatic Marriage was somewhat balanced due to its cost. A gifted MoV would only need to get close to a CS to suddenly act as a gifted super Settler.

Again, I don't think anyone on the design team would let it go so far. The fix would only need to prevent annexation to make it a worse version of both the Austrian and Venisian UA's, making it situational at best. Though given the problems that could arise from the very concept of the MoV as a UGP, I'm finding the 'leak' less and less plausible.

 

[kaspergm]

Well I wouldn't be too surprised if they fixed the gifted Kahn thing along the way. It does seem like a bit of an oversight imo. But what do I know ...

I'm a bit surprised at the level of dislike shown for Venice. Sure, the GMoV name might be a bit generic, but the concept sounds pretty sound imo. Matches the theme. People complain it sounds like it will be a tough civ to play, and that the disadvanteges outnumbe the advantages, but wasn't it the idea all along that this was going to be a "pro" civ?

It would be downright hilarious if the MoV functioned exactly the same as Austria's UA. You don't just get a new city. You basically settled a city, several buildings, a handful of pop and bunch of units. For free.

At least Diplomatic Marriage was somewhat balanced due to its cost. A gifted MoV would only need to get close to a CS to suddenly act as a gifted super Settler.

Again, I don't think anyone on the design team would let it go so far. The fix would only need to prevent annexation to make it a worse version of both the Austrian and Venisian UA's, making it situational at best. Though given the problems that could arise from the very concept of the MoV as a UGP, I'm finding the 'leak' less and less plausible.

Doesn't the latest version of the description we've seen say that the GMoV let's you purchase a City State?

 

[Cyon]

I think that Venice UA and MoV seems like a lot of fun, but the 'great galleas' seems boring, I would have preferred a 'Arsenale' UB, could have been a national epic replacement and given +15xp and 15% production for naval units, and done tourism bonus or artwork slots in the modern era to reflect the Beinale.

 

[Worlds_Crossing]

Doesn't the latest version of the description we've seen say that the GMoV let's you purchase a City State?

Oh, okay then. I didn't fully internalize the 'buying' aspect, sorry. That makes my two previous points completely moot.

Still a powerful UGP to get through the Patronage tree. Might make an Indonesia player consider getting Patronage solely for the UGP's insta-buying ability.

 

[Martin23230]

I remain unconvinced.

Me too, but I don't know if that's if I'm wishing it's not true to much... There are some more points I picked up that you don't mention though:

I first saw this piece of news on Reddit, and without any support, I can't help but be skeptical. I've read the first 5 pages of this forum since the announcement and I couldn't find any supporting evidence. If I missed something, feel free to let me know.

We certainly know that Themaelstorm posted his information and immediately (within two minutes) had it deleted. That's not uncommon, they've been deleting threads quite a lot recently since the Polish leak. However it was unusual due to the speed I would have said.
Because this was so quickly deleted, it was discussed in the "Hypercube" thread, a lot. Someone then took the unprecedented action to totally delete that thread, which had 40+ pages. Surely that stands out from any other mod action? They never deleted threads talking about the Moroccan leak, or even naming Venice and the Shoshone from the Polish leak. I'm pretty sure at least one of the mods will be part of the beta system, so I think they saw a totally correct leak and panicked, nuking every mention of it in a hope to contain it.

I did a quick look into Themaelstorms's history. I found nothing to support that they work for some sort of press office (or, that's what I think he's supposed to be from? I never did see the original post). Their history is pretty weak and lacks any involvement. Of course, this doesn't mean anything and indicates nothing other than they like to lurk. Their unfulfilled promise of screenshots isn't helping their case at all, though.

Firstly, that link is dead: here's the correct user history.

Actually, doing some research has strengthened it in my mind:

Search for "Themaelstorm". You get Twitter and Youtube accounts in Turkish for Ekrem Atamer, and searching for that name gives a LinkedIn profile for someone clearly involved in games journalism. He apparently used to be a freelance writer writing for Seti Media writing Game reviews, previews, guides etc. Seti Media apparently runs Oyungezer Online, a Turkish gaming site. Though apparently he has moved onto other work now it does mean there is precedent, this isn't just some random person making stuff up, it could be a random person making stuff up who work(ed) in the games review industry. I know, it's not conclusive but you must admit it's a point in his favour.

There was a comment from the Reddit post that pointed out that the claims were unsubstantiated, and the OP of that post said there were articles to confirm some of the information but didn't provide links. I probed and asked for the articles, also providing a little commentary of what I thought. He provided one link to a Polish forum which I can't read. If someone can find out what he's talking about, please help me out. Google Translate brought in nothing of substance. The other article he mentioned was "lost" (I think he was referring to the post made here on CFC), but then he got all defensive, telling me that he didn't care what I thought.

Actually, the leak fallout happens on the next page. Apparently Venice (which we all knew) and the Shoshoni (which was a surprise) came from a Polish reviewer called Azazel, who was very known for leaking screens of the original Civilization V version. Again not conclusive, but a point in those civs' favour.

A lot of people are pointing out how the mods here took the post down quickly as evidence that there was a leak. I say that it's evidence that there wasn't a leak. The fact that they "put it back up" (which I still can't find the OP) might suggest that they thought it was a leak then found out it was just garbage (I don't know how well the mods here are in contact with the dev team, but if they are, then there might've been a few words exchanged).

Like I said, removing the original thread is fine and not uncommon, but deleting the 40+ page Hypercube thread when people start reposting the information? We apparently know of the existence of a secret beta-test involving members of the fan community, I would be very surprised if (at least) one of this sites mods wasn't involved, so they would know if the leak was true or not.

All in all, this seems rather shady to me. Of course, I only found out about it a couple of hours after everyone else, and CFC seems to move quickly to affirm or deny any claims. I may have missed something. If not, then I remain skeptical.

I want to think so, and I am naturally sceptical, but the evidence does seem to be there. The map of the purple civ seems to fit Venice's supposed make-up, the Shoshoni would be a somewhat logically semi-obscure NA civ to replace the Pueblo, etc. I want to believe it's false since I'm not a fan of either of the civs from the sound of it, but we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Skykiller]

Well if the informations about Venice are true, it would make a very special civ. You can be sure that it won't be the kind of civ that take the order ideology. Such a civ would make Greece and Siam cry while Austria will try to troll it by bying its potential aims. But anyway I find Venice very interesting, having a powerful trade and cities everywhere in the world.

 

[alpha2117]

I hope the description of Venice is right - it will allow me to kill them before Optics eliminating them from my games like the Vermin they are.

 

[themaelstorm]

I feel exposed now

It's ok though, I never hide my identity. Yep, I've worked for game media in the past and the article is for Fragtist.com

I messaged Bite and he told me, although they wouldn't stop me from posting, they wanted me to make sure that it wasn't illegal. I did suspect I may have been wrong, so I had talked to my chief editor again and he assured me it was ok. I told him I could lay low but I see it becomes even more of an issue when I stay silent.

Soo, I'll just send the message I sent to Bite (it includes a link to my screenshots folder from steam, excluding thumbs)

PANDORAS BOX IS OPEN. Again and again, apologies to everyone for the whole mess.

Spoiler :

Hey, it's not about "stopping me" from doing it. I'll just lay low, it's ok. It was my mistake that started this. Stupid, but no bad intentions. Again, I apologize sincerely.

I did ask the chief editor yesterday, to be sure. The conversation was like this:
"Hey, are we certain that there is no NDA on bnw?"
"Yep, we got the key from Aral (distributor in Turkey) and they told us the review ambargo was lifted on 20th of May."

Here is my take: They tailored this version. They disabled picking other races, setting other mods, all main menu items including hall of fame.. They could have disabled in-game civilopedia. Or they could have disabled the to-be-hidden entries or simply unlinked them from this version.

Best case is they simply stayed quiet about it, kind of an easter egg. Worst case is they forgot or were technically unable (AND forgot to inform about hiding the info) but we have no way of knowing it. Thinking how just those two were not in game in my version, another guess could be that they were not finalized (well, that goes without saying but you know, less finalized than the other 7 civs).

Anyway here are my screenshots, I'm sending the link to you only: http://speedy.sh/4MGMf/screenshots.rar

Edit:
To be clear: I'm posting these as I was told there was no NDA.

Here is the first post

Spoiler :

Hello bite,
I received a press release of BNW: http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5882/bnwa.png


I'm told there is no NDA, so I have some info to add. I thought I shoul send here because I wasn't sure if you'd accept me as a source

I'm checking http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=490854

So, let me go through it!
First, new civs:

Shoshone
- Leader - Pocatello
- Capital - (don't know where to check this, the press kit has a map only with the revelead 7 civs and you can only pick Morocco)
- Unique Ability - Founded cities start with additional territory. Units receive a combat bonus when fighting in friendly territory.
- Unique Unit - Pathfinder; Replaces Scout (yey?) It has 8 combat, costs 30 p, allows you to choose ancient ruin bonus (really curious to see this :3)
UU - Comanche Riders; Replaces Cavalry. 134 p, it seems to have 4 movement like Cavalry but has an ability that gives +1 movement, the explanation says they have quick attacks.

Venice
Leader: Enrico Dandolo: Cannot gain settlers or annex cities (Wth, I'm reading as I'm writing to you, very interesting!). Double the number of trade routs available. A Merchant of Venice appears after researcing Optics. May purchase in puppetteered cities (oooooohhhh)

UU: Merchant of Venice: Replaces Great merchant: Has an additional ability to buy city states as puppet cities. (I've seen these guys thanks to cs's granting GPs... I wonder if i can purchase from puppet cities gained this way when I'm not Venice, guess not but gonna try!)

UU: Great Galleass: Replaces Nuclear Missile. Or Galleass, you guess it It has +2 combat, +3 ranged combat but costs 73p (vs 67)

(sorry, it's kinda long to go through alll the civs to check for all the changes, so going through the post)

New wonders

Red Fort: Defensive Buildings in all cities are 25% effective

Motherland Calls: This does not exist. Trying to find out which one it could be... cant find it. Maybe not in press release.

ISS: +1 P from Scientists, +1 S from engineers. Great Scientists provide 33% more S when discovering new tech.

National Wonders:
National Visiots Center (hotel in all cities): 100% of culture from World Wonders, National Wonders, Improvements (Maoi, Chateu etc) added to tourism output of city. Tourism output from great works +100%

Non-unique buildings
Zoo: 2 Maintenance, 3 Happiness. Requires Colesseum, Printing Press.

Units
Axeman (Called Hand-axe): I just saw one of these guys methinks. Civiped says they are Chariot Archer replacement (barb UU!). Yep, they attack from range. In fact, they cant melee. 9 Combat, 9 Ranged attack, 1 Range, 2 movement. Says it requires wheel and upgrade unit is Knight.

Bazooka: Requires Nuclear Fission, 85 Combat 85 Ranged, 1 Range, 2 movement. 251p or 500 f required to build.

Great Musician: I believe the tour either gives you tourism for other civs or gives other civs tourism for where you use it. Not clear in civiped.

Great Writer: Icon is like shakespeare, i love it (or shakespeare image in my mind)

XCOM: Yup! 40 squares. You can drop them EVERY TURN!!! Or so I've seen. And it doesnt have to be your own territory!! As far as I've seen you only cant land on water (D'oh) and land of civs that you're not in combat+no open borders.

New techs:
Internet: Doubles Tourism output.
Sorry, too troublesome too go through aallll the techs. But I'm gonna provide you screens.


Landmark site: Here is how it works: You dig an area and find an artifact (I think its random). It can be anything, like "Spear Tips, Barbarian, Ancient" or "Plate Armor, Morroccan, Medieval". You can make it an artifact or turn into a landmark. Ancient landmarks grant sooo much culture!

Natural Wonders
Lake Victoria: has 6 food

Honestly I'm not sure which ones are new, I dont think ive seen them all. I'll try:

King Solomon's Mines: 6 P

Fountain of Youth (This is new, right?) 10 Happiness and all units near it heal at double rate

World Congress
First of all, the "donate production" projects are SO AWESOME. That is, if you win. Double tourism/culture is godlike.

About diplomatic victory: I think it starts after an age but at some point, every other session asks for diplo victory. So it's not like the old UN (was that in civ3 or 4?) where you proposed yourself. It requires a certain amount of votes and you can see it. So if noone has enough to win, no need to worry (AI civs do vote for others, gotta keep that in perspective)

Other stuff:
When you make a great work of art, you see the painting, hear about 5-10 seconds of the music or the narrator reads a sentence from the novel, depending on the type.

How you place diplomat: If you place your spy in a capital, you get a window to pick either diplo or spy. So diplo is essentially your spy with a different mission/cover.


I never played Scenarios in Civ5 but tried Civil War in BNW. It had one map. Almost all systems were closed. If city has a manufactury TI, it can produce units. Great generals has 5 range and when "killed" they reappear in a close city. The infantry is interesting, after their first battle, they gain a name and an ability. I guess this is the random upgrade mechanics. It can get city attack bonus, movement penalty etc. There are also events that grant one side additional gold, great scientist etc.
There is a resource called manpower, it basically works like the pop system in age of empires/starcraft. But upgrading an infantry costs 2-3 more manpower.


Soo I hope you like it, feel free to ask any questions!

 

[sukritact]

Downloading the screenshots. Though the steam screenshot looks legit. Gah! Firaxis, why did you do this to Venice!?

 

[sukritact]

It's legit! (cries)

 

[wigwam]

I'll be damned. Looks pretty legit to me too.

(if somebody Photoshopped this, we should put him to work on Civ 5 mods, har har)

 

[Theoderic]

Downloading the screenshots.

U did?

I don't feel safe downlaoding a .rar.exe file

 

[Martin23230]

Yep, I'd say it's conclusive.

Here are a few of the screens:

There are a lot more, I'll find somewhere to host them.

 

[Moraiwe]

Viva San Marco!