Between WWs

[Tank_Guy#3]

Since it's a scenario about the interbellum, I think 1919 would be excellent.

This is supposed to be a scenario of the peace between World Wars. Did you forget about the Polish-Soviet War?

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[Tank_Guy#3]

I have a little info here if you need some:

Russo-Polish War 1919-20



State Entry Exit Combat Forces Population Losses
Poland 1919 1920 200000 28000000 25000
Russia 1919 1920 3600000 133000000 105000

An armed struggle between the Bolsheviks and Poland resulted from Russian attempts to carry the revolution westward and from Pilsudski's federalist policy. The Great Powers failed to pursue either an all-out intervention against the Bolsheviks or a policy of peace. An Allied proposal for a temporary border between Bolshevik Russia and Poland (called the Curzon Line) was unacceptable to either side. Except for an alliance with the Ukrainian leader Symon Petlyura (April 1920), whose troops accompanied the Poles as they captured Kiev in May, Poland fought in isolation. An offensive by the Red Army drove the Poles back to the outskirts of Warsaw, but the country was saved from catastrophe by Pilsudski's counterattack on August 16 (the "Miracle of the Vistula"). In the compromise Peace of Riga (March 1921), the Bolsheviks abandoned their plans to communize Poland, but the Poles had to abandon their federalist concepts. The new border, which corresponded roughly to the 1793 frontier, cut across mixed Ukrainian and Belarusian territories. In the north it included Wilno, captured by General Lucjan Zeligowski, a move that dug a chasm between Lithuania and Poland.

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Russo-Polish War (1919-20), military conflict between Soviet Russia and Poland, which sought to seize Ukraine. It resulted in the establishment of the Russo-Polish border that existed until 1939.

Although there had been hostilities between the two countries during 1919, the conflict began when the Polish head of state Józef Pilsudski formed an alliance with the Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petlyura (April 21, 1920) and their combined forces began to overrun Ukraine, occupying Kiev on May 7. In June the Soviet Red Army launched a counteroffensive, reaching the former Polish border by the end of July. In a wave of revolutionary enthusiasm, Soviet forces advanced through Poland to the outskirts of Warsaw (early August). The western European powers, fearing that the Russians might succeed in establishing a Soviet government in Poland and perhaps proceed to Germany, sent a military mission, headed by the French general Maxime Weygand, to advise the Polish army. The Poles counterattacked in mid-August and forced the Russians to retreat.

An armistice was signed in October 1920. The Treaty of Riga, concluded on March 18, 1921, provided for the bulk of Ukraine to remain a Soviet republic, although substantial portions of Belorussia (Belarus) and Ukraine were ceded to Poland.

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uh-oh

 

[mitsho]

Ehm, about the LoN-civ. It's a bit surprising for me that you 'deleted' Switzerland. And I have the fear that through this, 'Switzerland' will be soon at war with someone

(and it's quite sarcastic, because during the war years, many 'swiss germans' were on the side of Germany and actually wanted to join the central powers, but heaven thanks, there are also 'french swiss' (les romands) and 'Italian Swiss' (ticino), and of course, there were also swiss germans who didn't want to go to war. (but the general of the swiss army had to go though ).

Back to topic. Do you want a Swiss-civ, a LoN-civ (that doesn't make sense) or something in between. I'd help you to do the first and the last . Well. Here's my gameplay reasons. Will you make the rhineland-cities weak (so that they succumb to ebert's germany very fast?) or else there will be soon a war with Switzerland, and that's not what you want.

For Switzerland-LoN:
Capital: Geneva (it was the headquarter of the LoN and is still of the UNO (well, after NY)

Other cities: Perhaps you may want to rename Berne to Zurich (since it was the bigger city), Bern is only the capital. Another important city (that you could rename the city to would be Basel (yes, my living place ).

Leader: Giuseppe Motta (Swiss foreign minister [one of the seven Swiss presidents] AND president of the fifth assembly of the LoN [in 1925]).

military leaders (swiss!):
Général Henri Guisan (swiss WWII-general)
General Ulrich Wille (swiss WWI-general, 'prussian')
Oberstleutnant Bopp
Feldweiber Meyraz

scientific leaders (swiss!):
Auguste Piccard
Gottlieb Duttweiler
Paul Klee
Carl Spitteler
Charles Edouard Guillaume (two swiss nobel-prize winners in the time period 1920-1932)

Well, I had problems with the military leaders (I was just too lazy to really think about them, they're picked within five minutes, but shoul really do!).

Did I forget something? mfG mitsho

 

[W.i.n.t.e.r]

In the mid 1930's the city of Danzig (now Gdansk), was thoroughly German, but was given to Poland as they did not have any other major port cities.

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(America) (Terrorist Heathens)

After World War I, Poland became independent, and the Poles hoped to restore Gdańsk as 'a free access to the sea', as they had been promised by the Allies. They were very unhappy when the city was not placed under full Polish sovereignty, but was made into the Free City of Gdańsk, formally an autonomous part of Poland and protected by the League of Nations, but in practice dominated by the local German-speaking residents. Because these authorities obstructed Polish trade and restricted Poles from settling in the city, the Polish government decided to invest in construction of the nearby seaport of Gdynia, which in the following years took the majority of total Polish exports.

Tensions arising from quarrels between Germany and Poland over control of the Free City served as a pretext for the German invasion of Poland on September 1, 1939 and the outbreak of World War II. Gdańsk was annexed to Nazi Germany. Thousands of Poles and Jews were expelled or executed.

I wonder why so many know so little with accuracy, while it merely takes 2 minutes to look it up: Stop the guessing game- its all in the history books http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danzig

 

[Steve Thompson]

IMO, there are TOO MANY civs for an area as small as Europe. Malta and Cyprus should be British, etc. but that's just me. Interesting idea though, and no shortage of "what-ifs"...

 

[jatibi]

@winter: indeed, i agree. this thread's got no system. perhaps we should discuss one topic after another. i can't help if people post their "half-knowledge" in two sentences.

@steve thompson: the first map was and will be updated by me, there are still 30 civs. for this period of history it's quite right that there are so many small countries - in game they will be consumed fast.

@mitsho: no, no, no. grützi. the rhineland cities are a civ for themselfes - i repeat myself. Saarland, Danzig, Tanger and Suisse is with the LoN civ. I'm also not quite satisfied with giving Suisse to the LoN. The only chance i see, is to add a further swiss city, Zürich, and make Bern and Zürich the independent country Suisse,
and give Geneva to the LoN. It's just a bit not so good, cause there's no more place on the map! i don't make any problems of clustering towns - you could easiely compensate the food need by (invsible) resources. One Civ less means better gameplay, and i think there are some possibilities to make the LoN not really go to war, perhaps it can build only defensive units in Genf and Bern - i don't know quite yet.
perhaps there is someone experienced who knows how to trigger Suisse neutral for some time.

do i have just the impression, or is here a tendency to repeat quoting wrong things, that had been already defined as wrong and commenting them? ... it's just a little weired.

there isn't alone the polish-soviet war, there are so much more of them. turkey vs. greece and allied troops. a mass of civil wars, fighting political forces (the baltic countries in succesion of world war I, german "freikorps" fighting bolshevist revolutionaries), rise of fascism and dictatorship, crisis of democracy. conflict between france and germany and its diplomatic solutions. finland at war of independence since 1918. the economic theme (reparations, black friday and so on ... ). Italian expansion in the adriatic sea (albania, zara). Hungarian "red army" occupies parts of Slovakia - Romanian Invasion in Hungary. Irish Independence. Scientific and social discovery: quantummechanics, nuclear fission, human genetics, chemical synthesis, medical discoveries: rhesus factor, aircraft technologies, movies and television, new age of discovery with new technologies, psychoanalysis, modern art, ... etc. etc. etc.

a very interesting and "colourful" period of history. in creating the scenario, there should be no mainfocus on war as general as some ordinary scenarios do, but all aspects of civ. you can really build a lot of wonders in this time!

 

[jatibi]

of main importance to "simulate" the time between 1919 and 1939 is to find a way to express the fighting by non regular troops, which means, conflict between political groups (right-wing vs. left wing in general, you have this in different ways in nearly every european country at this period).

of especial importance should be the phenomenon "spanish civil war". as phenomenon, it must not appear exactly in spain. but it's the best known conflict for that type of conflict i am refering to.

what strategies can be used to make something like that possible?
i was thinking of units with hidden nationality, that can be built by special governments - so communist governments can produce such revolutionaries, that can invade a country without declaring war (?) and fascist government could produce a "legion condor"?. i'm not quite sure, if this works.

anyone ideas, suggestions?

 

[REDY]

Polish-Russian war - Yes I dont forgot. Russia in revolution has problems, but when Pilsudski started war Poles hadnt chance and this may cause neverending war when I clicked two fighting alliance. I think that Russia may divide to two nations, Soviet Union and Russia. Soviet Union will be around middle of European Russia and Russia may be west Ukraine(Poles), Northern Russia(Britain) and south of Ukraine (other countries like Romania). Other problem is that Poland attacked also Lithiuana for Vilnius but hasnt intererest to capture all....
I really think about units with hidden nationality, but I didnt tried it yet. Its only chance to make this scenario interesting with fascist govement like Baltic statesl,Spain,Bulgaria and many others ,Communism Russia and great problems with democracy states. But how it simulate for many years? Many countries was changing goverment much and only Britain, Czechoslovakia, Scandinavia,BeNeLux and maybe some others had constant goverment for years. For example Italy had more chances to be communist country than Fascist wit former socialist Mussollini. Maybe good will be put some countries in anarchy in start to randomize chances for Democracy,Communism and Fascism but I dont know if it works.

 

[REDY]

mitsho: I wanted all countries, but its not possible now, maybe we may started thinking about other possibiltes. BTW, Basel football club is great! I saw one match in CL in TV..Now I know that Cyprus and Malta will be not, but others - Baltic states and BeNeLux may be two countries, start thinking about it, I realy want play for example Switzerland or Luxembourg. Question : I dont know how delete possibility for alliances and protections for specific country...

 

[jatibi]

i just tried land units with hidden nationality. they _can not_ capture cities i supposed this, it's kind of logical, but at least i tried. so there's a problem.

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yet, this units may be useful to fight against only other units - why not, a marodating soldateska, that has no interest in capturing cities. at least they could be used as the "white" troops in russian civil war? yes, russia should be set in two parts, but in a proposition that the "white" russia, has no chance against soviet russia, although we put some allied troops with hidden nationality in that place. the problem is, that an "locked" alliance is of no use.

oh ... it's really difficult.

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isn't there an diplomacy editor out there? i hope so, cause locked alliances, really are of no use in this period.

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if russia's gone to be two parts, one civ got to be deleted.
i suggest Luxemburg - it was under french occupation, until 1925. in 1918, the Luxemburgian parliament voted by 29:11 against a confederation with Belgium. in 1922 customs union with Belgium... give it the rhineland comission? the LoN? Belgium? ... i hate such decisions
or we delete Suisse. if the baltic states are joined, they are likely to be strong, to be easily overrun by soviet forces, and a to strong factor as oponent against soviets.
i'm against creating a Benelux civ. Netherlands were neutral in world war I and stayed until 1939. Belgium had a constant military alliance with France until 1936 - Belgian forces took part in the occupation of the Ruhr territory.

.... Luxemburg LoN. and my idea is, that LoN cannot produce any culture, so it should flip easiely.

(second time edited)

 

[Kyriakos]

The map looks MAGNIFICENT!!!

(no, i am not saying that because Smyrna is part of Greece, well, not entirely anyway)

Although i havent paid much attention in that history period (well it isnt a very pleasant one) i could come up with the greek leaders if you want to. The leader should be the pm, Eleytherios Venizelos. His rivalry with the king was disastrous. The king should be Constantine.

ps: was Adrianople ottoman-neoturk? I think that it wasnt controlled by a turkish civ at the time, not sure though. Also i think that eastern rumelia (eastern Bulgaria now) was quasi-independant, but i guess that would make things complicated since Bulgaria annexed it later on.

 

[jatibi]

@vawros.

Smyrna was in 1919 still occupied by greek troups. the Edirne/Adrianopel was captured by Greece in 1920, holded until 1922. I didn't call Smyrna Izmir cause the deportation program is in 1923 (treaty of Lausanne)

 

[mitsho]

No deleting of switzerland, we are important. In my sense, it makes no sense to have a LoN civ. It would also be far too weak with these cities all over Europe. Therefore my suggestion was that we merge LoN and Switzerland, to a sense logical because Geneva was the headquarter of the LoN.
And it just doesn't make sense to have a 2-city civ, but you can't let Switzerland away, since - it's the asylum place for (political) refugees from all over Europe - and also played an important role in politics (diplomacy between the powers for example).

What speaks against creating Switzerland/LoN with Danzig, Tanger and so on?

I hope you can nevertheless use my description above. Btw. @jatibi it's grüezi (no t in there ... and btw. it's also basler, and not baseler as you germans (I dunno about you though) call it all the time )

@Redy thanks for the laudatio, it's good to hear that we weren't forgotten in Europe although we weren't that successfull the last years (meaning no CL, but still, for a club like us UEFA is great anyways. Hope we can beat Lille in february (Kill Lille Vol. 2 ).

mfG mitsho

 

[jatibi]

@mítsho

1. sorry for wrong spelling. grüezi
2. ?? i thought you were against joining LoN and Suisse? In my opinion, it becomes useful not to join them. a 2 city civ isn't useful? they should'nt be playable, at least at that "small" map.
if there's a LoN civ - and my idea, was, that it produces no culture and no units - then saarland and danzig can easily flip to another nation - germany, france or poland as they really did, without a war. if germany invades saarland, it would be not good if they are battling with the Suisse and conquer it, or loose and maybe loose some towns to an expanding Swiss Civ! You have to remind yourself, that Germany at that time, by Treaty of Versailles only had a military size of 30.000 troops. or poland goes for Danzig, and Swiss troop marchs to Warszaw? .. in a way it's okay, but i think there should historical accuracy, and that's not easy to trigger.

@redy: topic governments .. uh yeah .. that's gonna be difficult. it's just a question of how expansive the scenario should be. perhaps some forms of government (fascism in concrete) must be researched. there could also be some other factors that can make the civ change government, that should be possible to create in a way, perhaps high costs of military, and other things, there needs research to be done in the forums, i suppose, we are'nt the only ones who have these problems in creating a scenario

btw ... RHINELAND IS NOT LoN!!!!! IT'S A OWN CIV - THE INTER-ALLIED COMISSION OF RHINELAND, and i think it should have the same configuration as LoN - no units, no culture. PLEASE ...

READ, WHAT I'AM WRITING, BEFORE YOU POST! ALL OF YOU! i have to say some things again and again ... Suisse can be made strong by other ways, if that is what you want perhaps we should give them a Star Destroyer ... the simples way is to give them a lot of money and technological advance in comparison to other civs, a strong military but a low aggression level.

 

[mitsho]

ok, you can make two civs, too ok, I just wanted to help you to get a way to make the loading times etc. more bearable. (less civs = longer time). But if you think that's not a problem, also good.
But then I would definately give Geneva to Switzerland. It'd just be odd for it not being Swiss. (but Motta is Swiss leader, k?).

mfG mitsho

 

[jatibi]

@mitsho. dealing with lesser civs reduces loading times, you are right, and it's in my special interest since i don't have a high end computer.
but in that case, there are 3 arguments, cause i would not do it here:
1. the map is relatively small.
2. it's not a period of strong alliances like a ww-map.
3. it's europe, not under a global perspective like other scenarios.

here's an update, on how the political map looks like now.

 

[JuuL]

This seems interesting... I can't wait to fight the Fascists in Spain...

I can see that a lot of people have posted some detailed information about some of the countries, but you still need some about Denmark (could you please call us "Danmark"?)
Leader: Prime Minister (or even better: Statsminister) Thorvald Stauning (male)
Favorite government: Democracy (if you make other government types you can also give us Constitutional Monarchy. If you want to make the govts more "political" then Social Democracy is the best)
Shunned government: Communism or Fascism.... (the Danish government coorporated a lot with the occupying German Nazis, so perhaps we didn't shun them enough.)
Aggression level: 1 (low)
Bonuses: Agricultural + Scientific (or Industrial... or Commercial)
city names: use Mobilize's list (but remove Hedeby from the list)
Military Leaders: None
Scientific Leaders: Niels Bohr, August Krogh, Johannes Fibiger (Nobel Award winners in 1919-1939) If the mod continues into the 1940ies we also have Henrik Dam & Johannes V. Jensen
Should not build any kind of military units. The Danish-German "war" in 1940 only lasted 4 hours (if the Danish government had communicated faster, the "war" would only have lasted 2 hours).
The map: move "Alborg" (should be Ålborg) one square to the south and rename it to Viborg. Kobenhavn should be called København. An extry city in (57,19) called Skagen would be nice to have. Make a river at the southern edges of (55,21). Remove the forest in (55,23). Place some Cattle in the western part of the country. I think that was it.

Thank you for including us... some people would just have made us a part of "Scandinavia", which is a silly thing to do.
btw, the Czech Republic is a cool place

 

[jatibi]

it's kind of 19th century politcs here ... give me that city, it belongs to me since we were neolithic @mitsho and juul

i think, if there aren't any other critics, i'd say Geneva stays LoN. Suisse has enough with it's two cities!! i am really glad (no, not really) there are no Estonian, Romanian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Irish ... or Luxemburgian users here *g*

@juul. i already changed the map, making it more accurat. i made the city of Aarhus as second danish city. do you know how i could do that o with the line with my german keyboard .. ? thx for infos.

 

[mitsho]

Geneva was part of Switzerland since 1536. It's just that it's fundamentally swiss. And I don't see what it would bring for gameplay reasons (LoN-Geneva)

mfG mitsho

 

[jatibi]

okay, i make geneva swiss. it's okay. tanger then becomes capital of LoN.