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Bible talk

hat isn't at all supported by the text either, though :(
And also notice that he wasn't what you think as a lawyer today, but a religious teacher/interpreter. The term in the original is "νομικός", and the nomos (law) there is the judaic one, not something secular.

Even the first sentence of the story tells you that: Τῷ καιρῷ ἐκείνῳ, νομικός τις προσῆλθε τῷ Ἰησοῦ ἐκπειράζων αὐτὸν καὶ λέγων· ie: "In those days, a lawman came to Jesus to tempt him and said to him".
For now, we are entertaining the possibility that the question is earnestly asked. Go read the commentary. It treats ekpeirazdon, and allows for it to mean just "test." If Samson's okay with it, we'll adopt your more cynical view: that it's a hostile test. The Jewish authorities put Jesus to many of those (woman caught in adultery, pay taxes to Caesar). If the lawyer is hostile, that's actually better for my interpretation, but it's not where I understood Samson to be.
 
There's nothing cynical about what the terms mean. Let alone that the trope in all of the New Testament is to show how the local judaic authorities were against Jesus and trying to get him into trouble (which they finally managed to do in the end).
 
But is this one of those cases? Some people ask him questions because they want to know the answer. This one's harder to be sure about on that front. Those often have answers designed to get Jesus in trouble, whichever way he answers. This one, on the face of it, doesn't necessarily work that way.

And remember, the answer that Luke gives him to give is, in the other gospels Jesus' own words, Jesus own way of distilling the Law.
 
In the original text, no such interpretation can be possible.
You know I am not religious, it's just impossible to read the meaning you wish to read there (that the lawman honestly wanted to learn stuff). Granted, it is strange that he agrees to see Jesus as right in the end, but you can also view it as convenient writing (=made-up story).
On the other hand, if the term meant neighbor, it'd be (even?) more fake to have the lawman not use this in his retort.
 
oh, and on neighbour/near-one, in danish it's "du skal elske din næste som du elsker dig selv", which is "you must love your next as you love yourself". basically closer to near-one than neighbour ("næste" here is used archaically)
 
And knowledge of the Greek language. Kyr is wrong. I know that sounds haughty of me to say to a native Greek speaker. ekpeiraomai can just mean "to test," even just "to inquire" in one of its senses (though I think that is classical, rather than koine). peirazdo more centrally means tempt. It's what gets used in the woman caught in adultery episode in John, where they are explicitly trying to trip him up. In In Luke 20, should we pay taxes to Caesar, it's another word yet again, epilabo, trap. This episode more nearly resembles the young, rich man in how it plays out: one person comes to him, asks a question about salvation, is praised by Jesus and actually listens to the content of the answer.

But, again, even if Kyr is 100% right, it's not going to matter. All that matters is that the guy gives Jesus a pretext to define neighbor, or near-one, or næste, or πλησίον--whatever word means "the people near me." All that the story needs is for that word "near" to be called into question, because it is a challenge, a definitional challenge, to say who falls in and who falls out. How far out does "near" extend?
 
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Would you feel comfortable saying the lawyer is trying to establish an in-group, a limited number of people to whom the Levitican injunction applies. (and by extension an out-group, even if that might not be his express purpose)?
Yes
For now, we are entertaining the possibility that the question is earnestly asked. Go read the commentary. It treats ekpeirazdon, and allows for it to mean just "test." If Samson's okay with it, we'll adopt your more cynical view: that it's a hostile test. The Jewish authorities put Jesus to many of those (woman caught in adultery, pay taxes to Caesar). If the lawyer is hostile, that's actually better for my interpretation, but it's not where I understood Samson to be.
If you want to adopt that view that is fine by me.

As to the translation, in the first instance the speakers are discussing the details of Leviticus law in Hebrew. It is the meaning of the Hebrew word that is used there that is of most importance. However it does get complicated if one considers Jesus as omniscient God who knew it would be immortalised in Greek and translated so many times.
 
Since I have been summoned I’ll just say a couple of things, bearing in mind that I’m not an expert on this context. That’s not going to stop me pontificating, though.

First, remember that Jesus and his associates would have spoken not Hebrew but Aramaic.

Second, remember that the setting of most incidents in the Gospels is probably fictitious, even if the sayings attributed to Jesus are authentic. The early Christians handed down oral traditions of what Jesus said and did. The authors of the Gospels took these traditions and turned them into coherent stories. This very probably involved inventing settings and characters for Jesus to respond to. A good parallel would be jokes. You might hear a joke and tell it to someone else, changing some of the details either to make it better or because you don’t remember it all, but the punchline stays the same because that’s the point of the joke. In the case of the Gospel authors, they probably often preserve what Jesus actually said, but put it in a setting that serves their own purpose.

A good example of this is the first part of the story you’re looking at, Mark 12:28-34/Luke 10:25-29/Matthew 22:34-40. If you look at the earliest version, in Mark, the question is asked by a scribe, who responds to Jesus’ answer by agreeing wholeheartedly, and Jesus tells him he is not far from the kingdom of God. But in Matthew the questioner is a lawyer of the Pharisees, whose purpose is not an innocent enquiry but an attempt to trap Jesus. In this version he gives no approving reply and Jesus says nothing positive about him. And in Luke he is again a lawyer trying to test Jesus (less explicitly, but the friendly conclusion in Mark is again removed), and the exchange leads to the parable of the Good Samaritan.

You can see here how the basic saying about the Law is preserved, but the different authors give it different settings to fit their agendas. Matthew is the most hostile to the Pharisees and makes this story reflect badly on them, although it does not do so in his source - quite the reverse, if anything. Luke turns it into the preamble for a story that he presumably has from another source that is unavailable to Mark and Matthew.

The point of all this is that you can’t necessarily interpret the saying or speech of Jesus in the light of the framing narrative, because that’s not part of the original tradition or the circumstances in which Jesus actually said it, assuming he ever did. You need to remember that when you're reading a story like this, you're hearing from at least four groups of people: (1) Jesus and his original hearers; (2) the early Christians who remembered his words and retold them; (3) the first written sources based on that tradition; and (4) the author of the text in front of you who used that written source. All four of these might have had quite different interpretations. In the case of this story we have (3) *and* (4), because you can compare Luke's version to Mark's, which was Luke's source, and you can see easily how Luke has drastically altered that material. So if you're talking about what the lawyer is trying to ask Jesus and his motivation, who are you talking about? The character in Luke's story? The character in the text he got it from? The original lawyer who actually spoke to Jesus, assuming there was one? Because it's clear from comparing Luke to Mark that Luke's portrayal of this character is his own invention, quite different from how he appears in the source, and therefore is unlikely to tell us anything about the historical person, if there was one. And what are you ultimately trying to decide? What Jesus taught? What early Christians thought he taught? What Luke taught? What post-New Testament Christianity teaches? They're not all necessarily the same.

This also has ramifications for questions about the Hebrew Bible. Jesus would presumably have heard the Bible read in Hebrew at the synagogue, and loosely translated and interpreted in Aramaic (and possibly some Greek). The Gospel authors would have known it in a Greek translation, probably mostly the Septuagint. So if you're concerned with the meaning of a word from the Hebrew Bible, as here, you again need to ask yourself what you're asking. Are you asking what the original authors of that Hebrew text meant by it? Are you asking what Jesus would have understood by it? Or are you asking what the Gospel authors would have understood by it? Because all three would have been using different languages. It's entirely possible that all three might have understood different things by the passage in question, and that makes interpreting the Gospel passage all the more complex.

The third point is that the Sunday school interpretation of the story of the Good Samaritan as teaching that “everybody” is your neighbour is completely wrong. That is not what Jesus says at the end. He asks which character acted as a neighbour, and when his hearers identify *one* character as a neighbour, tells them to do likewise. In other words, the story is told (apparently) in response to the question “Who is my neighbour?” but Jesus pointedly refuses to answer that question. He instead tells his hearers to *be* neighbours instead of worrying about who else is a neighbour. This is much more radical and ethically demanding than the bland observation that everyone is our neighbour.
 
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However it does get complicated if one considers Jesus as omniscient God who knew it would be immortalised in Greek and translated so many times.
Yes, but remember that Christian tradition does not hold that Jesus was omniscient *in his humanity*. Mark 13:32 states that there are some things he does not know. Traditionally, Jesus in his human nature knows everything that a human being is capable of knowing, because his humanity is perfect, but this is not omniscience, which is impossible for humans and which his divine nature enjoys. But it is through his human nature, with its human mind and human will, that Christ speaks during his ministry.
 
The third point is that the Sunday school interpretation of the story of the Good Samaritan as teaching that “everybody” is your neighbour is completely wrong. That is not what Jesus says at the end. He asks which character acted as a neighbour, and when his hearers identify *one* character as a neighbour, tells them to do likewise. In other words, the story is told (apparently) in response to the question “Who is my neighbour?” but Jesus pointedly refuses to answer that question. He instead tells his hearers to *be* neighbours instead of worrying about who else is a neighbour. This is much more radical and ethically demanding than the bland observation that everyone is our neighbour.
+1 ΙΧΘΥΣ (for the rest of the post too)

(thanks for the tag, but because samson picked up, i'll just be reading along for this exchange.

i have my own thoughts on the samaritan specifically because the end of the exchange is kind of interesting; i think it underlines reciprocity as part of neighbourness over affliation; the neighbour in the parable is the one that helps; the others aren't neighbours! even if this is the outgroup enemy; BUT jesus also implores the lawyer to go and help LIKE the neighbour, helping anyone regardless of affliation. so it's kind of constructive, but there's hints of bleakness as to who actually is the neighbour to love; there are hints as to lack of universality, depending on interpretation, from what i can tell. shatters the idea of enemies of your ingroup, but demands a semblance of reciprocity

if that's where you're going, gori, don't spoil it, just keep doing da socrates)

One can also note that such non-inclusiveness is common in the New Testament. "Μὴ δῶτε τὸ ἅγιον τοῖς κυσίν" (can be translated as 'Don't give what is holy to the dogs') is a more explicit phrasing of it. It's the phrase which is followed by the pearls before swine analogue.
 
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If you want to adopt that view that is fine by me.
What I really want, Samson, is the answer to the question I asked before Kyr barged in and disrupted the rhythm of our back and forth:

In either case, the lawyer is trying to get defined the group of people to whom Leviticus 19:18 obligates him to love. A lot's at stake. His opening question had been, "What do I have to do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus turns the tables and asks him what. He gives his answer, and Jesus says "correct." But now he's asks "Who is my neighbor?" We know he doesn't already have the answer "everybody," because then he wouldn't ask the question. And anyway, we've said that the word "neighbor" can't really mean "everybody" because you can't simultaneously be near to everybody (can't really associate with everybody, either). Would you feel comfortable saying the lawyer is trying to establish an in-group, a limited number of people to whom the Levitican injunction applies. (and by extension an out-group, even if that might not be his express purpose)?
 
Second, remember that the setting of most incidents in the Gospels is probably fictitious, even if the sayings attributed to Jesus are authentic. The early Christians handed down oral traditions of what Jesus said and did. The authors of the Gospels took these traditions and turned them into coherent stories. This very probably involved inventing settings and characters for Jesus to respond to. A good parallel would be jokes. You might hear a joke and tell it to someone else, changing some of the details either to make it better or because you don’t remember it all, but the punchline stays the same because that’s the point of the joke. In the case of the Gospel authors, they probably often preserve what Jesus actually said, but put it in a setting that serves their own purpose.
Great post my friend. People often forget that there were 30 to 50 years between the crucifixion and the written gospels. That could be two lifetimes. It is not too different from me telling stories about my college days in the late 1960s and trying to quote conversations accurately. :lol:
 
Great post my friend. People often forget that there were 30 to 50 years between the crucifixion and the written gospels. That could be two lifetimes. It is not too different from me telling stories about my college days in the late 1960s and trying to quote conversations accurately. :lol:
back in my day, we WALKED to school, shoeless, in the snow, uphill both ways
 
Would you feel comfortable saying the lawyer is trying to establish an in-group, a limited number of people to whom the Levitican injunction applies. (and by extension an out-group, even if that might not be his express purpose)?
Yes.
 
Thanks. Here's the point I forgot to make before. It was a follow-up to my asking you if it was a pretty impressive rhetorical feat to get near-one to mean the one thing that it can't mean: every-one.

I had intended to establish that we don't think it's just a bit of verbal trickery, but that it's also impressive at the level of its substance, too. What I mean builds on something you agreed to early on: that "love your neighbor as yourself (and everyone is your neighbor)" is a lovely ethical ideal. Christianity can be proud that that is one of its guiding principles. It's not that no other religion has that view, or that atheists can't act according to that ideal. But just the sheer fact of Christ encouraging first the lawyer, and then everyone else who takes this parable seriously, to not try to restrict who they care for—that that is a good thing.

So, when Christ manages, through the parable, to get the lawyer to redefine “neighbor,” that’s a morally positive advance for that lawyer, as well as for any reader of the gospel who takes the message to heart and tries to live by it. It works to counter the human tendency to think and act in terms of in-groups and out-groups. Would you agree? I almost feel as though I could presume to answer for you on this one, based on your answer to the earlier question, but still I'll let you have your say.

I'm getting pretty close to treating my answer to one of the questions you raised about the parable, by the way. I know you've had to be very patient.
 
i love this btw gori the samson
You and me both.

And I've liked the contributions of all other posters. In fact, they are anticipating where my reading is going to a degree that I'm toying with the notion of, when I get to the big reveal, doing it entirely through quotes people here have already made. (Then why do we need you, Gori? For the broad interpretive framework in which all of those comments ring with their full force).
 
when I get to the big reveal
Now that is worth waiting for. I'm sure I've made some mistakes and errors but I pray I've not harmed anyone. Interested in seeing a collection of all of our quotes weaved together. :goodjob:

But just a general answer back to the non-believing community. You really have to come to the end of yourself in order to truly see Jesus. The points and counterpoints are merely the reluctance to admit we're all sinners. Trying to reason it out with human logic ultimately won't really work. Remember, God's ways are not our ways.
 
But just a general answer back to the non-believing community. You really have to come to the end of yourself in order to truly see Jesus. The points and counterpoints are merely the reluctance to admit we're all sinners. Trying to reason it out with human logic ultimately won't really work. Remember, God's ways are not our ways.
Hi Moff. :hatsoff:

This is just a specific answer to a believing individual:
You are vague. Coming to the end of yourself, or truly seeing Jesus don't mean anything.
You are wrong. The points and counterpoints are not the reluctance to admit we're all sinners. I'm very happy to admit I am a sinner with regard to a religion I do not believe in or subscribe to. (You believers always assume non-believers secretly do believe, which is really quite rediculous)
You are wrong. Trying to reason it out with human logic is the best resource we have to progress. If instead we were to take pointers from the Bible we would still be having slaves and treating women horribly.
You are right. God's ways are not our ways. God's ways as described in the Bible are an abysmal way to run society. Lets be grateful for not living in a Theocracy. :thumbsup:

Cheerio!
 
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