Billionaires who've lost a lot of money

[Great Librarian]

I would consider a suburb of a city as a fringe area but certainly not a town. I wouldn't look to protect the economic diversity of a suburb either. I'd rather see them torn down personally. Hopefully rising gas prices will encourage a return to life in the city. But I fear the damage has already been done to at least two generations who will know nothing else but the convenience of purchasing all of their items and visiting the doctor at one store.

It's not everyone in the last 30 years. I do, however, suspect it is a majority.

You should be a bit more optimistic, though. Enter Vancouverism and other successful variations of dense, urban, mixed-use planning. Of course, such enterprises require a desire to have densely populated urban areas and support for small, private retail enterprises. Largely Vancouverism is, however, the preservation of 'view corridors', but the urban planning model therein promotes a particular style of urban development out of necessity. In particular, such planning does not promote the development of 'big box' retailers, there not being quite enough space and the available space out pricing profitability. Certain cities are taking the lesson to heart in varying degrees. You can easily guess which those are in Canada.

 

[Orange Seeds]

It's not everyone in the last 30 years. I do, however, suspect it is a majority.

You should be a bit more optimistic, though. Enter Vancouverism and other successful variations of dense, urban, mixed-use planning. Of course, such enterprises require a desire to have densely populated urban areas and support for small, private retail enterprises. Largely Vancouverism is, however, the preservation of 'view corridors', but the urban planning model therein promotes a particular style of urban development out of necessity. In particular, such planning does not promote the development of 'big box' retailers, there not being quite enough space and the available space out pricing profitability. Certain cities are taking the lesson to heart in varying degrees. You can easily guess which those are in Canada.

Even Vancouver has its own Surrey.

So this is the debate tactic? Belittle the accomplishments of someone who's done pretty decently in life? Denigrate the creation of a major public works project because it happened late in a man's life, or because the working conditions weren't pristine (hey, nothing was back then, but it sure beat subsistence farming.

And yes, hating someone JUST because they have more wealth than you is the same damn thing as hating someone who is of a different race.

So call me naive Luce. Because I do believe "one can get anywhere through one's own efforts" And that's the criticial difference between you and I Luce. You make excuses as to why someone can't get a better standing in life, thus blaming the "system." Our world isn't perfect, that is for sure, but there is nothing stopping someone who is steadfastly determined from improving their lot in life.

you are both ideologues. Respecting someone just because they have wealth is just as bad as hating them for it. But unfortunately you can't possible say that "one can get anywhere through one's own efforts" its an absurd statement. You can't back it up statistically, empirically or rationally. At least not any more.

I would like you to prove to me that every person has, inherently, regardless of every other factor, the ability to become highly successful. There is a plethora of sociological and psychological studies that show how integral environmental factors are to the health of an individual, and not many that show they are irrelevant.

 

[JerichoHill]

Welcome to the forum Orange. I have disagree, I've not really been accused of being an ideologue here. I tend to reflect more centrist views.

I can say that you can get somewhere because of one's own efforts because I know of many examples, including my own life story. I have made no claims to respect and like the wealthy just because they are wealthy, you're putting words into my mouth there. I was specifically rebutting a point made by a previous poster that they "hate" wealthy folks. I would tend to ask many questions, including how a wealthy person lives, how they got their money, and what they plan to do with it, before stating some sort of judgement on their morality. I'm not a fan of discrimination, and since the bulk of my work deals in socioeconmic and ethnic discrimination cases, I have the viewpoint that they're equivalanet.

As for succeeding on one's own merits, I am NOT saying it is likely nor certain, but that it is certainly possible. Of course environmental factors and other externalities have effects. But I know plenty of people who came from bad or otherwise undesirable situations at the start of their life who've done really good for themselves.

 

[JerichoHill]

We should all be so lucky as to have a get-up-and-go mentality like Jericho, as opposed to your self-loathing, unaccomplished hand-wringing.

I am so siging this.

 

[Orange Seeds]

Welcome to the forum Orange. I have disagree, I've not really been accused of being an ideologue here. I tend to reflect more centrist views.

well, i had to goad you into debate somehow.

I can say that you can get somewhere because of one's own efforts because I know of many examples, including my own life story. I have made no claims to respect and like the wealthy just because they are wealthy, you're putting words into my mouth there. I was specifically rebutting a point made by a previous poster that they "hate" wealthy folks. I would tend to ask many questions, including how a wealthy person lives, how they got their money, and what they plan to do with it, before stating some sort of judgement on their morality. I'm not a fan of discrimination, and since the bulk of my work deals in socioeconmic and ethnic discrimination cases, I have the viewpoint that they're equivalanet.

As for succeeding on one's own merits, I am NOT saying it is likely nor certain, but that it is certainly possible. Of course environmental factors and other externalities have effects. But I know plenty of people who came from bad or otherwise undesirable situations at the start of their life who've done really good for themselves.

but how possible is it? Alas anecdotes are not enough for me, perhaps its time i do some of my own research. I have a striking impression that a person has a very limited capability to free themselves from their surroundings yet at the same time this makes apodictic that individuals posses significant power over other individuals. Thus i may have more influence over a friend than i do over myself. Which seems to be the sort of things that is nearly universally remonstrated.

Enough of that digression. I suppose it is just that that mantra discussed above is used as an a priori self-truth that forms the base for a vast amount of political and economical systems while it is entirely baseless itself. No matter the extent of my asking, prodding and searching no man nor paper has demonstrated that I am capable of triumphing over my setting.

 

[JerichoHill]

but how possible is it? Alas anecdotes are not enough for me, perhaps its time i do some of my own research. I have a striking impression that a person has a very limited capability to free themselves from their surroundings yet at the same time this makes apodictic that individuals posses significant power over other individuals. Thus i may have more influence over a friend than i do over myself. Which seems to be the sort of things that is nearly universally remonstrated.

Enough of that digression. I suppose it is just that that mantra discussed above is used as an a priori self-truth that forms the base for a vast amount of political and economical systems while it is entirely baseless itself. No matter the extent of my asking, prodding and searching no man nor paper has demonstrated that I am capable of triumphing over my setting.

Up until the last decade, income mobility was fairly high across a representative individual's lifetime (US-centric). For evidence I can link to here:

http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/hp673.htm

Here's the summary:
* Income mobility of individuals was considerable in the U.S. economy during the 1996 through 2005 period with roughly half of taxpayers who began in the bottom quintile moving up to a higher income group within 10 years.
* About 55 percent of taxpayers moved to a different income quintile within 10 years.
* Among those with the very highest incomes in 1996--the top 1/100 of one percent--only 25 percent remained in the group in 2005. Moreover, the median real income of these taxpayers declined over the study period.
* The degree of mobility among income groups is unchanged from the prior decade (1987 through 1996).
* Economic growth resulted in rising incomes for most taxpayers over the study period:
*
Median real incomes of all taxpayers increased by 24 percent after adjusting for inflation;
*
Real incomes of two-thirds of all taxpayers increased over this period; and
*
Median incomes of those initially in the lower income groups increased more than the median incomes of those initially in the high income groups.

There is a whole report there. There's evidence right now that mobility is declining currently, probably due to the recession and some bad policy choices by the Bush Admin. Note that that folks who put together such reports are career bureaucrats and mostly administration independent.

Anecdotal evidence, while inferior to statistical evidence, is evidence nonetheless. I know of many streets to suburbs success storie because I grew up in a pretty darn poor area. While many folks have not seen their financial standing improve upon that of their parents, those who had a demonstrably different drive (Hunger?) to do so did, regardless of race, sex, or family structure. It IS possible, but its not easy.

I'd happily point out other information sources, most the economics journals to which I am subscribed. I can really only cite sources, unless you have access to a subscription service (copyrights and all that)

 

[amadeus]

I am so siging this.

Yay, I'm quotable.

But I use a lowercase 'a' in my name.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

People losing money doesn't cheer me up in an economic downturn.

 

[Orange Seeds]

I'd happily point out other information sources, most the economics journals to which I am subscribed. I can really only cite sources, unless you have access to a subscription service (copyrights and all that)

I'm still young and for the most part uneducated, so i'll have to accumulate access to various journals and data as i age. I have a well-developed head for politics and philosophy, but economics, as a sort of necessitated corollary science of those two studies i know nearly nothing about. So imagine my excitement to find an employed economist on an internet forum. What i'm trying to get at is that i'm probably going to poke and prod at you until I begin to accumulate a semblance of knowledge on the subject. Thus, whenever you get the chance, make a fool of me! I can only hope to one day do the same.

If you have any more easy links that i can put in my 'economics' bookmark folder, do share.

 

[Archbob]

[edit] opps double post, please delete

 

[Archbob]

Orange, I've seen an an entire generation(my parent's) literally rise up from the Ashes of the Cultral Revolution and the Great Leap Forward, find some way to emigrate to America or stay in China and start with nothing living in run-down neightborhood or trailer parks and in the past 20 years build themselves up to be solid middle-class citizens.

The real difference between piss-poor refugees and immigrants and the traditionally poor in the America is that we as a group, unlike the traditional poor in America, understand the value of education and hard work and are simply far more productive than them.

You aren't going to convince me that there's no social mobility in America when so many have taken advantage of it.
Most people who are traditionally poor just simply don't work hard. The lower class simply has higher drop-out rates and even if you bus them to a better school, which many programs are doing so, they still tend to fail when given the same resources.

Its the lower-class mentality, rather than lack of resources, that limits them.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

Yes, Jericho is a very spunky dude, however, his spunkiness is usually a necessary condition for "success", not a sufficient condition.