Yes. Birthright citizenship is the foundation of liberty and free society. Without it freedom ain't happening. Which is why the enemies of freedom think that it is dumb. Who are the enemies of freedom? Fascists.
Birthright Citizenship (split from Clown Car II)
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Yes. Birthright citizenship is the foundation of liberty and free society. Without it freedom ain't happening. Which is why the enemies of freedom think that it is dumb. Who are the enemies of freedom? Fascists.
Ryika
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Well, you've sort of outed yourself as an american kid who knows nothing of the rest of the world in the past, so that you would say this is not surprising, but here's the thing:
Most countries in the world do not grant birthright citizenship to children of visitors, legal or illegal.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Honestly I think giving out citizenship to anyone based on happenstance of birth is a bad idea, but consider jus solis less bad than jus sanguinis. Ideally, citizenship would never be granted without informed consent. We really should have any would be citizens meet all the same requirements regardless of their backgrounds. Having a family history in a country for hundreds of years should not provide any advantage.
I can't work out whether this is serious or not.
You are all missing the point. The franchise is the foundation of all liberty. Liberty doesn't happen in a vacuum. It is a fundamental human right to have a say in the government that you are subject to. The fact that government don't accept this right does not make it any less true. It makes those governments hostile to liberty.
The greater an extent to which some would restrict others from having a say in their government, the greater an extent to which those people are hostile to liberty.
The greater an extent to which some would restrict others from having a say in their government, the greater an extent to which those people are hostile to liberty.
Witty.
Ryika
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You called people fascists for being against unlimited birthright citizenship.
That's a nice little speech there, but it's utterly misguided. Not automatically getting "free citizenship" in a country just because you happen to be born on its soil, is not a restriction to liberty, it's just not being granted a privilege on something as meaningless as the place where your slipped out of your mother's vagina.
I mean, just think about what you're arguing for. You say that the child of a Russian mother who can afford to travel to America and give birth there must have the automatic right to citizenship, but what about the children of everybody else who can't travel there? Is that not the prime example of class discrimination? Surely, if you were consistent, you would not base your opinion on something as meaningless as your place of birth, you would argue that every single person in the world should have automatic citizenship in your country, because everything else restricts your liberty.
Lexicus
Deity
We Americans don't believe that citizenship ought to be considered a "privilege."
Imo it would make a bit more sense if a newborn got automatically citizen rights only if (at least) one of the parents already was a citizen.
Iirc that was the law in (most of the timeline of) ancient Athens. Sometimes others would want to make it so that both parents had to be athenian citizens.
Iirc that was the law in (most of the timeline of) ancient Athens. Sometimes others would want to make it so that both parents had to be athenian citizens.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
To prevent birthright citizenship you would have to amend the Constitution, or else make it so that non-citizens residing here are not subject to our laws during their sojourn.
US Constitution said:
The Constitution does seem to recognize citizenship as a privilege, or at lest as something which confers privileges and immunities rather than rights.US Constitution said:
What about getting citizenship for something as meaningless as your parents being from somewhere? The concept of citizenship, and the ''immunities and priviledges'' that come along with it, is absurd, and serves only to restrict said immunities and priviledges to those who don't have it
Ryika
Lazy Wannabe Artista
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Because they're a part of that country and not just visiting it to get free citizenship for their children? Well, in most cases they are at least. I don't see how the two are even closely related to each other.
Citizenship also comes with responsibilities. But how is that absurd?
Lexicus
Deity
No, that they talk about the Privileges of Citizenship doesn't mean anything .The 14th Amendment clearly establishes citizenship as a birthright, not a privilege.
@topic: something something Jeff Flake
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Most privileges are things that the privileged view as their birthrights.
Lexicus
Deity
An evasive non-response. Again, the law is that if you are born here you are a citizen. This is not in my or anyone else's "view," this is simply a fact. It is happening as we speak, babies are being born in the US and they are citizens as a result of being born here.
If the prerequisites are different then you have huge issues appearing, cause those currently setting the (new) rule would do as is their interest, leading to even worse nepotism. Citizenry (where it applied) was always about being born to citizens, or at least having one citizen parent.
Lexicus
Deity
?? The Roman Republic is considered the trope codifier for citizenship; the distinctive feature of that polity was precisely its ability to absorb outsiders by granting them citizenship over time.
I thought we weren't discussing about (semi) barbaric states
(anyway, my last post was left vague; i was only contenting the idea of replacing automatic or other citizenship based on where you were born, with some other trial of sorts)
(an example of historical gaining of citizenship by trials was through war, in various times and states, including even Sparta with the helots used in war)
Except that's not the same thing as "your country is fascist if they don't grant immediate citizenship to all babies born there".
Lexicus
Deity
In the US context those who want to roll back the 14th amendment are invariably racist and also tend to be fascists.
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