Blowback

[bernie14]

@Estebonrober ... Is this thread meant to exclusively cover the commie apologist narrative or can it be more general....like 'blowback....f* around and find out"....

 

[Zardnaar]

Serfdom was practically another form of slavery. (Probably wrong, if it is then tell me)

You have some rights as a serf depending on country. You can't be sold and in some countries it was legal to run away ine year in city you were no longer a serf.
Really depended on the country though.

 

[Hygro]

Serfdom was practically another form of slavery. (Probably wrong, if it is then tell me)

Yeah, less bad but still evil. You’re not wrong to think that way but we draw a difference for a reason.

Like the average serf lived fairly far from their lords given the transportation of the day. So it was a lot freer than manor-bound slaves. And if there were enough serfs and enough balance of power with the church and stuff, there could be some level of rights to slow down the abuse.

But ultimately it was violent men forcing labor with weapons and cruelty.

 

[r16]

ı too have google but can't find North Korean invasions before 1950 . But ı know of South Korean massacres against like people in the South who were Communists , Communist sympathizers , and anyone who got caught in between . To claim there were invasions before 1950 is like an insult agzinsg the mighty US Warmachine , whose troops in Japan who were sent to Korea as the initial response team were incapable . Like you people say America ignored Communist invasions and kept its troops fat and distracted with geishas ? Incredible !

 

[amadeus]

There are meaningful differences between standoffs, incidents, skirmishes, incursions, and full-on invasions.

Allied soldiers were killed in Germany by Nazi “werewolf” attacks after German surrender. American transport planes were shot down by Yugoslavia in 1946. Since the Korean war there have been armed incidents at the DMZ.

We didn’t go to war for any of those.

 

[r16]

people have been told to live in the North Korean paradise because they are ignorant of history and whatnot .

 

[Birdjaguar]

ı too have google but can't find North Korean invasions before 1950 . But ı know of South Korean massacres against like people in the South who were Communists , Communist sympathizers , and anyone who got caught in between

I would agree that the there was little cross border fighting prior to the actual July 1950 invasion in spite of the fact that both leaders claimed the entire country as theirs.

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea was proclaimed on 9 September 1948, with Kim as the Soviet-designated premier.

On 12 October, the Soviet Union recognized Kim's government as the sovereign government of the entire peninsula, including the south.[49] The Communist Party merged with the New People's Party of Korea to form the Workers' Party of North Korea, with Kim as vice-chairman. In 1949, the Workers' Party of North Korea merged with its southern counterpart to become the Workers' Party of Korea (WPK) with Kim as party chairman.[50] By 1949, Kim and the communists had consolidated their rule in North Korea.[35]: 53  Around this time, Kim began promoting an intense personality cult. The first of many statues of him appeared, and he began calling himself "Great Leader".

It wasn't until after the war, in 1955-56, that Kim ramped up his god cult, purged his opponents and imprisoned tens of thousands of dissenters. NK continued to make overall progress until the mid 70s when its long decline (compared to SK) began.

SK: July and Aug 1948 Syngman Rhee elected to lead SK.

Soon after taking office, Rhee enacted laws that severely curtailed political dissent. There was much controversy between Rhee and his leftist opponents. Allegedly, many of the leftist opponents were arrested and in some cases killed. The most controversial issue has been Kim Ku's assassination. On 26 June 1949, Kim Ku was assassinated by Ahn Doo-hee, who confessed that he assassinated Kim Ku by the order of Kim Chang-ryong. The assassin was described by the British historian Max Hastings as one of Rhee's "creatures".[29] It soon became apparent that Rhee was a dictator.[30] He allowed the internal security force (headed by his right-hand man, Kim Chang-ryong) to detain and torture suspected communists and North Korean agents. His government also oversaw several massacres, including the suppression of the Jeju uprising on Jeju island, of which South Korea's Truth Commission reported 14,373 victims, 86% at the hands of the security forces and 13.9% at the hands of communist rebels,[31] and the Mungyeong Massacre.

By early 1950, Rhee had about 30,000 alleged communists in his jails, and had about 300,000 suspected sympathizers enrolled in an official "re-education" movement called the Bodo League. When the Communist army attacked from the North in June, retreating South Korean forces executed the prisoners, along with several tens of thousands of Bodo League members.

Rhee was de facto dictator until 1960 when the CIA helped him flee the country to the US. His legacy is is pretty poor and he did little to help SK recover from the war.

tldr:
SK "elected" their dictator for life in 1948 and sent him packing in 1960 but continued to be ruled by dictators until 1987. The SK economy and standard of living has continued to improve throughout the last decades of the 20th C and into the 21st.
NK "elected" their dictator for life in 1948 and he and his family have ruled ever since. Over the decades since the 1970s, the NK economy has stagnated and the standard of living dropped further and further behind SK and now it is a country sized prison camp and world class criminal organization.

All Korea suffered badly under Japanese rule.
SK suffered badly economically and freedom wise from 1948 to ~1975 and has improved both steadily for the last 35 years (1987-2023)
NK suffered from 1950-53; improved economically through 1975; and has suffered steadily worse for the past 50 years both economically and freedom wise.

 

[FriendlyFire]

It wasn't until after the war, in 1955-56, that Kim ramped up his god cult, purged his opponents and imprisoned tens of thousands of dissenters. NK continued to make overall progress until the mid 70s when its long decline (compared to SK) began.

NK benefited from playing Russia and China against each other, receiving massive amounts of aid, subsidies and materials
The structuring of the economy was often built on these so when the aid stopped following in it was disastrous
Along with its catastrophic farming policy

 

[FriendlyFire]

ı too have google but can't find North Korean invasions before 1950 . But ı know of South Korean massacres against like people in the South who were Communists , Communist sympathizers , and anyone who got caught in between . To claim there were invasions before 1950 is like an insult agzinsg the mighty US Warmachine , whose troops in Japan who were sent to Korea as the initial response team were incapable . Like you people say America ignored Communist invasions and kept its troops fat and distracted with geishas ? Incredible !

Organized and armed by the North Korean government, and backed up by 2,400 KPA commandos who had infiltrated through the border, these guerrillas launched a large offensive in September aimed at undermining the South Korean government

North Koreans made two final attempts to keep the uprising active, sending two battalion-sized units of infiltrators under the commands of Kim Sang-ho and Kim Moo-hyon. The first battalion was reduced in annihilation to a single man over the course of several engagements by the ROKA 8th Division. The second battalion was annihilated by a two-battalion hammer-and-anvil maneuver by units of the ROKA 6th Division,

Korean War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[r16]

real cool that the relevant wikipedia page was last edited 14 hours ago but ı won't hold it against you . But is this how you really want to play it ? Because there is a reason why the narrative has long been that the evil Communists attacked without a provocation in total surprise that stunned the world . Like people around here might like any claims that Edgar J. Hoover had James Forrestal murdered as his so called insanity which was caused by intense hate against some shady WW II characters was risking the rehabilitation of Nazis and Imperial Japanese as the only solution when the US Army was intentionally emasculated to justify using the recent enemies as proxies . Like it invariably goes into what the West was already doing ...

 

[amadeus]

The last page edit was someone removing Albania from the list of NK’s supporters; Wikipedia edits can be viewed. It’s not really a conspiracy.

 

[r16]

my English is not that complicated to deduce ı was claiming it was a conspiracy to make me lose an argument or something .

 

[Hygro]

Even if you meant the page overall evolves with the times, you can still trace the changes back.

 

[Estebonrober]

I mean it was Soviet and Chinese aid that was propping up the North Korean economy, one that suffered greatly after the end of the E. European communist bloc.

Not to bicker about the topic over all but you know... North Korea benefitted from billions of dollars (curent equivalent numbers here) for about ten years. South received over 100 billion in aid and obviously no sanctions or embargoes for stupid reasons.

China and the Post-War Reconstruction of North Korea, 1953-1961

NKIDP Working Paper #4, “China and the Post-War Reconstruction of North Korea, 1953-1961,” written by Zhihua Shen and Yafeng Xia, is the first paper in English to systematically assess the extent and significance of Chinese assistance to North Korea after the Korean War.

www.wilsoncenter.org

How does US foreign aid work and where does it go? | USAFacts

In 2022, the US spent over $70 billion in foreign aid to nearly 200 countries, territories, and geographic regions — around 1% of the federal budget.

usafacts.org

 

[Estebonrober]

North Korea supported armed communist insurgency in the South
Leading to Major clashes by invading North Korean conventional forces below the 38th Parrel with SK forces defending in 1948-1949

We have Google
Feel free to move to North Korea

are you ok? I don't recall you being this ignorant in your behavior last time I was trolling around.

South Korea supported gansterismo military fascism in the North. None of that was OUR (the US) fudging business. How insanely clear that is looking back now can only be denied by people who were so brain addled by corporate American propaganda to believe that commune-based rice farmers in Korea were going to end American life as they knew it, or the people who were directly involved in turning america into a permanent war economy. Academically it's not a question of what happened anymore, now comes that long slow part where the reality of behavior of the american elite slowly filters down to the population. The Cold War will not make America look good. We were fudging awful in behavior for fudging awful reasons, and the entire population bought it hook, line, and sinker. Like I said earlier, at least they good roads and schools... my generation is going homeless and killing themselves while the same elite (and their fudging kids) continue this nightmare around the world in our names.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not to bicker about the topic over all but you know... North Korea benefitted from billions of dollars (curent equivalent numbers here) for about ten years. South received over 100 billion in aid and obviously so sanctions or embargoes for stupid reasons.

China and the Post-War Reconstruction of North Korea, 1953-1961

NKIDP Working Paper #4, “China and the Post-War Reconstruction of North Korea, 1953-1961,” written by Zhihua Shen and Yafeng Xia, is the first paper in English to systematically assess the extent and significance of Chinese assistance to North Korea after the Korean War.

www.wilsoncenter.org

How does US foreign aid work and where does it go? | USAFacts

In 2022, the US spent over $70 billion in foreign aid to nearly 200 countries, territories, and geographic regions — around 1% of the federal budget.

usafacts.org

10 billion back then is worth a lot more than now.

Marshall plan isn't that big by modern figures and even back then it wasn't as big as one thinks when you adjust it

10 billion in 1960 is 103 billion now.

I'm sure South Korea has still received more.

 

[Estebonrober]

@Estebonrober ... Is this thread meant to exclusively cover the commie apologist narrative or can it be more general....like 'blowback....f* around and find out"....

blowback is not fafo, this particular thread is not meant to be more than sharing information (whether american hogs like the information or not the accuracy is not in question) and sharing my shock in learning it. We fudging leveled an entire nation (south korea included) and killed ~2million human beings basically jsut so we could keep building bombs and crush unions in the homeland. Its fudging abhorrent. It is an abomination. I'm not a Stalinist, I'm not a Maoist, I'm not even a Marxist. I'm not here to defend the merits of the workers owning the means to production. I'm here to call out the fudging reality that the US is the most war crime nightmare riddled nation state in the last hundred years and it is not even close. We pointlessly have gone around crushing or directly helping crush social; movements at the slightest pretense that it would hurt some little **** firm's stock price.

I just wanted to know why so many people bought into it and so far, I'm just getting childish rote recapitulation of that very same propaganda. Trust me, I know I am not going to get any enlightenment from you on this topic, your reactionary behavior over the years has been consistent and constantly disgusting. I see you consistently and constantly justifying mass murder at the slightest pretense of being annoyed about a topic. I would not expect worker's rights to be a thing you care about.

Moderator Action: Warned for trolling. The_J

 

[Estebonrober]

10 billion back then is worth a lot more than now.

Marshall plan isn't that big by modern figures and even back then it wasn't as big as one thinks when you adjust it

10 billion in 1960 is 103 billion now.

I'm sure South Korea has still received more.

the 10 billion was adjusted to current values. thanks tho

 

[Zardnaar]

the 10 billion was adjusted to current values. thanks tho

Ah cheers. How long a time period was it over?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Not to bicker about the topic over all but you know... North Korea benefitted from billions of dollars (curent equivalent numbers here) for about ten years. South received over 100 billion in aid and obviously no sanctions or embargoes for stupid reasons.

China and the Post-War Reconstruction of North Korea, 1953-1961

NKIDP Working Paper #4, “China and the Post-War Reconstruction of North Korea, 1953-1961,” written by Zhihua Shen and Yafeng Xia, is the first paper in English to systematically assess the extent and significance of Chinese assistance to North Korea after the Korean War.

www.wilsoncenter.org

How does US foreign aid work and where does it go? | USAFacts

In 2022, the US spent over $70 billion in foreign aid to nearly 200 countries, territories, and geographic regions — around 1% of the federal budget.

usafacts.org

If you click on your second link, you will find this:

Which countries receive the most foreign aid?​

Since World War II, $960 billion, or over quarter of all US foreign aid, has gone to five countries: Israel ($312.5 billion), former South Vietnam ($184.5 billion), Egypt ($183.7 billion), Afghanistan ($158.9 billion), and South Korea ($120.7 billion), after adjusting for inflation.

Followed by a nice graph. 25% to these five countries means 75% to other countries. And of that $120 billion to ROK, $30 billion was sent in 2018-2020. That leaves $90 billion spread over 78 years.