Brainstorming Grigori Module

[Sephi]

With Patch 7.50 I am moving the documentation from the forum ingame. Page for Grigori+

Grigori - Godless Heroes[\H1][PARAGRAPH:1]
Many of the Great Persons born amoung the Grigori are Adventurers

Diverse People[\H2]
Grigori Units start with a random race.

Great Person Points(GPP)[\H2]
The Grigori Palace provides 2 Adventurer GPP to get you started. The Adventurers Guild, Museum and the greater Museum all add a few points as well.

Heroes[\H2]
Heroic deeds can also produce new Adventurers. Defeating a Worldunit or rising to high level can earn a Grigori Hero the legendary Status and a new Adventurer may rise amoung the Grigori. A greater Museum can be opened by a Hero with unique Equipment (Orthus Axe, Rod of Winds, etc.) or a Hero of legendary Status. When a Greater Museum is built or a Luonnotar enlightens a city an Adventurer might spawn.

The Luonnotar[\H2]
The Luonnotar is a powerful endgame unit with magic immunity and a bonus against disciple units. With his Enlighten City ability he can remove Religions from Cities.

Treasure Hunter[\H2]
The Treasure Hunter gets better explore gains from Dungeons and has a reveal Dungeons ability. Grigori Heroes can research new Adventure opportunities in a Library which might create a Dungeon near the city and a new Opportunity for the treasure Hunter.

 

[Brokenbone]

Ah ha, I guess you did say 7.5 needed documenting, didn't you!

As to one bullet, a suggested adjustment if I understand how it works in game.

"While mostly humans, Grigori Units have a chance to start with a random, living race. Certain buildings increase this chance."

I think the Museum and/or Greater Museum are what bump the chance? I have no idea where it starts though, nor what different buildings and whatnot add. Like if it was a base 10% but rises to 12%... or 75%, or what, if you had the right building. Or maybe in the future projects like rituals or something ("Accept the Downtrodden", loads of hammers, adds some Adventurer points and culture per turn makes its host city have double or triple the chance of diverse units).

 

[Sephi]

You are correct added.

base chance is 40, with museum 70

 

[wapamingo]

Treasure hunter that is built and happens to be of a different race, no longer a treasure hunter but a regular hunter. The first ever treasure hunter I build happen to have spawned as a lizard race, had to build a few more to get the real treasure hunter...

Also, founding adventurer guilds and all other spells that take time to cast are not scaled to speed of game. So it still takes 20 turns to build an adventurer's guild in Quick games (about the time it takes for one of the late-game wonders). I hope these cast times can be adjusted for game speed.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

that would require merging some of denev's code, but is definitely possible

 

[graywarden]

I just started to test the Grigori, and I really dont like the zoo effect created by the random generation of other races. I understand the intent is to spice things up a bit, but IMHO less is more. I would think that the absorption and integration of other races into the grigori society should be based on city population race diversion NOT just randomly from the countryside. Especially with such a strong percentage in the formula where your units are more likely to be NON-Grigori then Grigori.
I think the formula should be based on city racial population from conquered cities or even from cultural borders.
But having an orc as my first born son is not quite what I would want.

Grigori has traditionally been one of my favorite and best civs to play in FFH/WM, but I will be honest I wouldnt play it as a player now with this setup as it is. I could be a minority on this, because as a player (vs a tester) I tend to be very iconic and want to play in the spirit of the racial enviroment.

Just my two cents on the matter.......

 

[arstal]

One suggestion- life III allows resurrection of heroes.

Maybe a small bug- adventurer's guild founded while under stasis will not kill the unit.

I'd like to see percentages lowered to like 10 and 20 honestly.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

we could move the diverse trait to the kuriotates and give Grigori the tolerant trait

Elohim could then lose the tolerant trait and get something else that promotes peaceful, defensive play, like a unique trait that makes them stronger in their cultural borders.

 

[graywarden]

we could move the diverse trait to the kuriotates and give Grigori the tolerant trait

Elohim could then lose the tolerant trait and get something else that promotes peaceful, defensive play, like a unique trait that makes them stronger in their cultural borders.

I take it the Diverse Trait is the one that promotes the diversity in unit generation then..... I agree that the Kuriotates would make more sense in having that trait, I think that would play much better in that scenario.

 

[arstal]

we could move the diverse trait to the kuriotates and give Grigori the tolerant trait

Elohim could then lose the tolerant trait and get something else that promotes peaceful, defensive play, like a unique trait that makes them stronger in their cultural borders.

I like that. What about centaurs for Kuriotates though?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

you can always disable the diverse trait for their mounted line, shouldn't be an issue

imho leaving it enabled would be pretty cool as you could get some funky units like boar riders, fyrdwells, goblin chariots etc.

 

[graywarden]

Maybe whats missing in these equations is the matter of choice. It wouldnt be so bad to have some diversified units AVAILABLE to train IF you wanted them. Again I think it would be more realistic if population race/cultural borders were tied in with it, then yeah you could decide to train Orc Warriors alongside Grigori Warriors if someone wanted to. That to me would be more interesting then the random approach, unless of course a node of Wild Mana was within the city border, then I could go there, having mutated and assorted and sundry units "spawning" from the node or the city. haha.

 

[Valkrionn]

Maybe whats missing in these equations is the matter of choice. It wouldnt be so bad to have some diversified units AVAILABLE to train IF you wanted them. Again I think it would be more realistic if population race/cultural borders were tied in with it, then yeah you could decide to train Orc Warriors alongside Grigori Warriors if someone wanted to. That to me would be more interesting then the random approach, unless of course a node of Wild Mana was within the city border, then I could go there, having mutated and assorted and sundry units "spawning" from the node or the city. haha.

That wouldn't be too hard to do (Though I'd only do it for UU's); Basically, make the UU it's own unitclass, but give them access to both the new unitclass and the standard one; Then make sure that the standard unit is always a random UU. Would be something to use for, say, the Kurio Centaurs.

 

[Sephi]

I would think that the absorption and integration of other races into the grigori society should be based on city population race diversion NOT just randomly from the countryside. Especially with such a strong percentage in the formula where your units are more likely to be NON-Grigori then Grigori.

You are Grigori if you believe in the philosophy of Cassiel, your race has nothing to do with that .

 

[graywarden]

You are Grigori if you believe in the philosophy of Cassiel, your race has nothing to do with that .

Ahh I missed that lesson at school, I must have been playing hooky that day, and secretly playing computer games in the basement.... haha.

 

[graywarden]

You are Grigori if you believe in the philosophy of Cassiel, your race has nothing to do with that .

So the philosophy of the Grigori presumably came thru the Age of Ice with the tribe, but this is a small tribe that has survived. The new world begins with a single city. Over time in the new age, that Philosophy should be allowed to evolve or devolve (as the case may be) by the effects, again, of the player and that particular game.

I also think that my point is valid from a players perspective and a certain sense of logic and realism. Having a special ability that allows a "melting pot" or a "motley crue" still should be a "choice" by the player.

The philosophy allows it to take place in the storyline.

The logic and realism allows it to become available as population/border interactions increase. This also allows that special ability to evolve over time, and it is more appreciated (less is more). Borders includes the "barbarian" borders which would allow an orcish warrior to be "AVAILABLE" as well as a Grigori warrior.

And/Or possibly once the mercenary system is figured out, that the Grigori have a nice bonus there allowing them to take advantage of those diverse units.

The player has a choice in the matter of "how much" of this special ability does he want to use, a little or a lot.

 

[Brokenbone]

The percentages are higher than I'd thought, but I actually enjoy getting random troops with the lore behind it. I think somewhere in the civiolpedia is the story of how Goodreau the merchant came to Cassiel's throne room? Well, anyhow, I'm good with it.

When I get random troops, I am much of the mind to do the whole "if life gives you lemons, make lemonade" type of thing. Like if I randomly get a dwarf warrior, guerilla may be a high priority choice for him, due to the synergies. Elf may get Woodsman I to patrol local forests. Goblin scouts might get flanking promos to build on their existing ability to withdraw from combat, and may be reserved to promote up the mounted line to keep that. It does mean a change in strategy somewhat from building maybe your standard, favourite armies, but hey, there's fun in that.

As to the comments re: Kuriotates, they may be a culturally mixed group, but some of the philosophy there seems to be that certain troops are guaranteed to be of a certain race. Centaurs enlist all up the mounted line, those ferret dudes are scouts, and things like that. I'd actually like to see more racial UUs available to them, people always talk about naga wizard types, maybe there are other strange combinations (non-random) that could get figured out. This may include if they were permitted to train five flavours of warrior (human, elf, dwarf, mazatl-style lizard or orcish warrior), five flavours of archer/slinger/javilneer etc., although that could massively clutter their build interfaces. May need a thread of its own though

 

[Sephi]

So the philosophy of the Grigori presumably came thru the Age of Ice with the tribe, but this is a small tribe that has survived. The new world begins with a single city. Over time in the new age, that Philosophy should be allowed to evolve or devolve (as the case may be) by the effects, again, of the player and that particular game.

I also think that my point is valid from a players perspective and a certain sense of logic and realism. Having a special ability that allows a "melting pot" or a "motley crue" still should be a "choice" by the player.

The philosophy allows it to take place in the storyline.

The logic and realism allows it to become available as population/border interactions increase. This also allows that special ability to evolve over time, and it is more appreciated (less is more). Borders includes the "barbarian" borders which would allow an orcish warrior to be "AVAILABLE" as well as a Grigori warrior.

And/Or possibly once the mercenary system is figured out, that the Grigori have a nice bonus there allowing them to take advantage of those diverse units.

The player has a choice in the matter of "how much" of this special ability does he want to use, a little or a lot.

how about this? First time you have shared borders with someone, you get the option to either promote cultural diversity (diverse trait) or stability (some weak organized trait?).

 

[graywarden]

how about this? First time you have shared borders with someone, you get the option to either promote cultural diversity (diverse trait) or stability (some weak organized trait?).

I can support such a notion.... great solution Sephi