Brazil discussion thread

[Lecen]

But we didn't had a "war"

Brazil had a major war of Independence, with more troops mobilized than South American Hispanic colonies. It's importante to remember that Brazilian-born and Portuguese-born fought on both sides. The war had four fronts:


The Southeastern front:

8,000 Portuguese were surrounded by 10,000 Brazilians led by Prince Pedro (later Emperor Pedro I). This was the only bloodless engagement in the Brazilian war of Independence.


The Northeastern front:

There were battles between troops loyal to Emperor Pedro I (Brazil) and to the Portuguese cortes (Portugal) in Pernambuco and in Bahia. 2,000 "Brazilians" besieged seveeal hundred "Portuguese" in Recife (capital of Pernambuco, a province). After several battles, they expelled the "Portuguese".

At the same time "Brazilians" besieged Salvador (capital of Bahia, also a province). Brazilians from Minas Gerais, Rio de Janeiro, Pernambuco, Bahia, Paraíba and Alagoas fought in the "Brazilian" army in Bahia. A total of 13,000 "Brazilians" fought against "11,500" Portuguese in Bahia. There were several battles in this province.

There was also one major sea battle between Brazilian and Portuguese warships. The Brazilian warships went as far as Portugal's coastline.

The Northern front:

8,000 "Brazilians" from Ceará, Piauí and Rio Grande do Norte marched to Piauí (a province) and later to Maranhão (another province). They fought 1,200 "Portuguese" (actually, all Brazilian-born). This is where the Battle of Jenipapo and the Siege of Caxias occurred.

At the same time Brazilian warships blockaded the port of Belém (capital of the province of Grão-Pará), guarded by 1,200 "Portuguese".

The Southern front:

3,500 "Brazilian" soldiers from the provinces of Cisplatina (present-day Uruguay), Rio Grande do Sul and São Paulo besieged Montevideo. The town was protected by 4,500 "Portuguese" (a mix of Portuguese-born and Cisplatinian-born). After several battles the Portuguese surrended on March 1824. It was the last place to surrender.

There was also one major battle in Cisplatina's coast between Brazilian and Portuguese warships.

Total area:

Almost the entire Brazil (with the exception of present-day Central-Western region), roughly equivalent to half of South América.

Total troops engaged:

Brazil: 10,000 (in Rio) + 13,000 (in Bahia) + 2,000 (in Pernambuco) + 8,000 (in Piauí and Maranhão) + 3,500 (in Cisplatina) = 36,000

Portugal: 8,000 (in Rio) + 11,500 + more than a 600 (in Pernambuco) + 1,200 (in Piauí and Maranhão) + 4,500 (in Cisplatina) + 1,200 (in Grão-Pará): 37,400

Comparison with other nations:

Simón Bolívar, who every U.S. historian loves had no more than 9,000 men during the war of Independence of Colombia, Venezuela, Bolívia and Ecuator. San Martín, who fought for Argentina, Peru and Chile had at most 12,000 men.

Final thoughts:

The Brazilian war of Independence was shorter than then Hispanic-American wars because all armies were directed by one central government (in Rio under Pedro I) while the Hispanic-Americans were fighting among themselves, each caudillo dreaming of becoming the next dictator of his nation.


There was no war of Independence of Brazil? Hah!

 

[nunor]

Brazil had a major war of Independence, with more troops mobilized than South American Hispanic colonies. It's importante to remember that Brazilian-born and Portuguese-born fought on both sides. The war had four fronts:


The Southeastern front:

8,000 Portuguese were surrounded by 10,000 Brazilians led by Prince Pedro (later Emperor Pedro I). This was the only bloodless engagement in the Brazilian war of Independence.


The Northeastern front:

There were battles between troops loyal to Emperor Pedro I (Brazil) and to the Portuguese cortes (Portugal) in Pernambuco and in Bahia. 2,000 "Brazilians" besieged seveeal hundred "Portuguese" in Recife (capital of Pernambuco, a province). After several battles, they expelled the "Portuguese".

At the same time "Brazilians" besieged Salvador (capital of Bahia, also a province). Brazilians from Minas Gerais, Rio de Janeiro, Pernambuco, Bahia, Paraíba and Alagoas fought in the "Brazilian" army in Bahia. A total of 13,000 "Brazilians" fought against "11,500" Portuguese in Bahia. There were several battles in this province.

There was also one major sea battle between Brazilian and Portuguese warships. The Brazilian warships went as far as Portugal's coastline.

The Northern front:

8,000 "Brazilians" from Ceará, Piauí and Rio Grande do Norte marched to Piauí (a province) and later to Maranhão (another province). They fought 1,200 "Portuguese" (actually, all Brazilian-born). This is where the Battle of Jenipapo and the Siege of Caxias occurred.

At the same time Brazilian warships blockaded the port of Belém (capital of the province of Grão-Pará), guarded by 1,200 "Portuguese".

The Southern front:

3,500 "Brazilian" soldiers from the provinces of Cisplatina (present-day Uruguay), Rio Grande do Sul and São Paulo besieged Montevideo. The town was protected by 4,500 "Portuguese" (a mix of Portuguese-born and Cisplatinian-born). After several battles the Portuguese surrended on March 1824. It was the last place to surrender.

There was also one major battle in Cisplatina's coast between Brazilian and Portuguese warships.

Total area:

Almost the entire Brazil (with the exception of present-day Central-Western region), roughly equivalent to half of South América.

Total troops engaged:

Brazil: 10,000 (in Rio) + 13,000 (in Bahia) + 2,000 (in Pernambuco) + 8,000 (in Piauí and Maranhão) + 3,500 (in Cisplatina) = 36,000

Portugal: 8,000 (in Rio) + 11,500 + more than a 600 (in Pernambuco) + 1,200 (in Piauí and Maranhão) + 4,500 (in Cisplatina) + 1,200 (in Grão-Pará): 37,400

Comparison with other nations:

Simón Bolívar, who every U.S. historian loves had no more than 9,000 men during the war of Independence of Colombia, Venezuela, Bolívia and Ecuator. San Martín, who fought for Argentina, Peru and Chile had at most 12,000 men.

Final thoughts:

The Brazilian war of Independence was shorter than then Hispanic-American wars because all armies were directed by one central government (in Rio under Pedro I) while the Hispanic-Americans were fighting among themselves, each caudillo dreaming of becoming the next dictator of his nation.


There was no war of Independence of Brazil? Hah!

Oh, come on... Most Brazilians nowadays don't give a damn about their country's 'independence' because they know Brazil never really had to fight hard for it. Suffices to say that Brazil's first independent ruler (Pedro I) was son of the Portuguese king and heir of the Portuguese throne (being simultaneously emperor of Brazil and king of Portugal, as Pedro IV, during a brief period in 1826), had to pay 2,000,000 pounds sterling to his father so as to have Brazil recognised as an independent state, and later he actually abdicated the Brazilian throne to go and fight the civil war in Portugal and 'liberate' his homeland from his absolutist brother.

Brazil may have fought some battles against Portugal during this period... but I'd say there was no true war of independence.

 

[pedrobarbosa]

We had battles, but not a war of independence. We "bought" our indepence, in a diplomatic way. We are strong in diplomacy and it's more important for our history than the carnival or the pracinhas.
And yeah, pracinhas were not a important unit in history of Brasil. More symbolical than effective participation.
Our biggest war was in Paraguay, the unique big war that we had participate.
And I agree with Rio as capital, they're still our cultural capital. Brasilia is only a administrative place, with nothing else.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Though I'm not Brazilian, I find the War of the Triple Alliance the most interesting war Brazil was involved in.

 

[pedrobarbosa]

Yeah, in Brasil we know this war as "War of Paraguay".
It's our most important war, we had big battles, and conquest of some territories.

 

[berialima]

Brazil had a major war of Independence, with more troops mobilized than South American Hispanic colonies. It's importante to remember that Brazilian-born and Portuguese-born fought on both sides.

There was no war of Independence of Brazil? Hah!

And we destroyed the armies of Portugal (?) so completely that we pay then to train new ones right? That is what you call a war? "10 guys" fighting each other and a prince heir as emperor paying his father to have a new country? Common!

But we going off-toppic again, let's go back to the point in question

 

[berialima]

Spain never interveened in the portuguese colonies.

Never said it did. I said it was "annexing" (to use the civ term) Portugal, not Brazil, since the Felipe(s) I, II and III (II, III and IV if you go by Spanish count) ruled Portugal from 1580 to 1640 (the time the Dutch and French invade Brazil.)

Edit: Wikipedia is my best friend. I knew Spain had some relationship with England by the same time, and got that Filipe I (II of Spain) was married with Mary I of England and was replaced in throne by Elizabeth I (the civ leader of England).

 

[Arbustro]

Never said it did. I said it was "annexing" (to use the civ term) Portugal, not Brazil, since the Felipe(s) I, II and III (II, III and IV if you go by Spanish count) ruled Portugal from 1580 to 1640 (the time the Dutch and French invade Brazil.)

Ah alright, but in this case the invasions of brazil would be part of a region specific scenario, so whatever happens in mainland Portugal wouldn't matter.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Since someone was trying to get us all to refer to the Assyrians as sciencemongers, I say we call Brazil the partymongers.

Works for me

So, any thoughts on the origin of Pedro's carpet?

It looks kind of like a carpet I owned. Why, what's special about it?

 

[cuc]

The patterns on the carpet are from a North American native culture, right? I think it's Navajo?

 

[sterrius]

Well, Pedro II really made a visit to US, it was his second of three international visits. (If i remember he made one to egypt, one to US and one to france, each of them using personal loans to avoid using public resources).

But the carpet can be from the middle east too. In fact, i think its more likely from there.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think I see what you're getting at. Gustavus Adolphus had a picture of Maria Teresa in his room.

 

[GenjiKhan]

One thing interesting about Pedro II that no one mentioned is that one of his ancestry is just Maria Theresa,according to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_II_of_Brazil#Ancestry

I wonder if there will be a easter egg related to that .

 

[Cyanfunk]

One thing interesting about Pedro II that no one mentioned is that one of his ancestry is just Maria Theresa,according to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_II_of_Brazil#Ancestry

I wonder if there will be a easter egg related to that .

Well, he has the trademark Habsburg "only two sets of great grandparents" thing going on.

 

[MaximusK]

The patterns on the carpet are from a North American native culture, right? I think it's Navajo?

We know they already had their eyes on the Southwest (Pueblos). It's possible. They are the second largest tribe in terms of enrollment after the Cherokee. The Navajo also reside on their ancestral lands.

But this is a brazil thread

 

[Calouste]

Well, he has the trademark Habsburg "only two sets of great grandparents" thing going on.

There weren't that many Catholic royal families left at that point, so the choice was fairly limited.

 

[Aliteri]

And we destroyed the armies of Portugal (?) so completely that we pay then to train new ones right? That is what you call a war? "10 guys" fighting each other and a prince heir as emperor paying his father to have a new country? Common!

But we going off-toppic again, let's go back to the point in question

Brazilians, generally those of the south-east really, tend to think that there was no war of independence. But that aside, I'm surprised you can read what he said and answer like you did. He just said that the war of independence involved over 10,000 men across the nothern, northeastern and southernmost provinces of the colony.

I don't know wether that is true, but I do know that in many of those places there are actual re-enactments of the War. Like those Americans do.

 

[cuc]

Actually looking at it again, the pattern is probably South American. It resembles some Inca tapestry patterns.

 

[berialima]

Brazilians, generally those of the south-east really, tend to think that there was no war of independence. But that aside, I'm surprised you can read what he said and answer like you did. He just said that the war of independence involved over 10,000 men across the nothern, northeastern and southernmost provinces of the colony.

I don't know wether that is true, but I do know that in many of those places there are actual re-enactments of the War. Like those Americans do.

I'm from Recife. And if look in a map (in case you're not brazilian) you will see that is Northeast of Brazil. I'm not from the South, South East or anything like that. We did studied all the Dutch and French here (Since you know, the Dutch invaded MY city ) and the only re-enactments we get is from the 1640 war between Portuguese to throw the Dutch out.

I also lived across ocean (In Porto - I guess the North people have more fun ) and in both sides I hear the same story: Brazil bought it's independence. I'm not saying no one fight no one, or that there was no deaths, but they didnt define the status of "new country" as much as the money Pedro send to his father back in PT.

 

[Lecen]

I'm from Recife. And if look in a map (in case you're not brazilian) you will see that is Northeast of Brazil. I'm not from the South, South East or anything like that. We did studied all the Dutch and French here (Since you know, the Dutch invaded MY city ) and the only re-enactments we get is from the 1640 war between Portuguese to throw the Dutch out.

I also lived across ocean (In Porto - I guess the North people have more fun ) and in both sides I hear the same story: Brazil bought it's independence. I'm not saying no one fight no one, or that there was no deaths, but they didnt define the status of "new country" as much as the money Pedro send to his father back in PT.

Then you met people with no knowledge of their countries' history. You should be embarassed of that, not boasting it in here. Brazil did not buy its independence nor was a deal between father and son. Such a simplistic view of how nations ignores that each had to deal with forces of pressure, interests of different groups, bureaucracy, regional partisanship and others. Or do you believe that João could simply say "slavery is over" and everyone would accept it? The money paid by Brazil was not to buy it's independence. It was a compensation to Portugal for the loss of all priceless belongings of present-day Biblioteca Nacional in Brazil and for the properties of João which were seized.